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This is a controversial topic, so I guess I'm risking massive downvotes, but... I come from a country where being called a leftist is a compliment, and being c

This is a controversial topic, so I guess I'm risking massive downvotes, but... I come from a country where being called a leftist is a compliment, and being called a rightist is generally viewed as an insult (being a centrist - like myself - also implies - in this country - that you're a rightist, go figure). While the left has always resorted to violence and aggressive tactics (beating up professors who refused to yield to "student strikes" at universities, for example), they have always claimed the moral high ground. In the meantime, any public action or protest by the right (even moderate right) was generally viewed with scorn. In other words, it was a mirror-image of the US. While the radical left in the US exists, it is mostly harmless, unlike the radical right. Europe largely works as a mirror image of the US in that sense. In France, for example, people view as acceptable that workers conduct violent strikes, sometimes kidnapping and beating up managers, but any rightist manifestation is seen as an extreme danger. It is good to see countries striving for a more neutral treatment of violent actions, from any ends of the political spectrum. [Just in case it wasn't clear enough: antifas/radical-left in the US are pretty much a harmless joke, and by no means equivalent to the radical-right/extreme-right/alt-right/Nazis/white-supremacist/whatever threat]

mhh__ 9y ago
Which country would that be?
- ucaetano 9y ago
  I'm not planning to answer that, but there are dozens (dozens!) that fit that description.
  - Max_Mustermann 9y ago
    I'd go with Cuba!
    - ucaetano 9y ago
      Nope. In Cuba you can't even declare yourself a rightist without being thrown in jail.
- Aardverk 9y ago
  Probably Sweden, because he confused the word "manifestation" with "demonstration" which is what many Swedes do, even if their English is great.
  - smallnamespace 9y ago
    Manifestation means demonstration in French as well
  - ucaetano 9y ago
    Nope :) I can think of at least 5 languages that would make that mistake, probably representing dozens (Dozens!) of countries. Italian, French, Portuguese, Catalan, Corsican, etc... And I didn't confuse manifestation with demonstration. A demonstration IS a manifestation, but not all manifestations are demonstrations.
stcredzero 9y ago
antifas/radical-left in the US are pretty much a harmless joke They claim as their spiritual forebears, the "Red Shirts" who were part and parcel of the destabilization of the Weimar Republic. It's the clashes between the "Red Shirts" and the "Brown Shirts" that helped the Nazis rise to power there. They also claim some of the same forebears as the people who did this stuff in a 1st world industrialized country, very recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_Lead_(Italy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_Lead_(Italy) I've also been speaking to a number of Antifa supporters on social media. The "organization" doesn't do a good job of promoting a coherent ideology which supports the notion of human rights. If anything, their media output indicates they feel they can disdain human rights for their cause. More precisely, they declare that they can unilaterally, extra-judicially decide to withdraw human rights from certain people and act accordingly. This is plainly what they both do and say. Study your history. Violent clashes between extremists and the decay of the rule of law are the harbingers of a lot of very bad stuff. Any movement acting to normalize that kind of environment is just bad news waiting to happen. (EDIT: Yes, it's good that they managed to defend Cornell West. Genuine defense against physical attack is fine. Unprovoked attacks and vandalism aren't. You can't excuse someone's whole record based on one good thing they did.)
- ucaetano 9y ago
  [Edit: author made it clear he wasn't replying to me specifically, so the following post is irrelevant] > Study your history. Such condescending tone. Much patronizing. Very naive. I do study my history. I'm not saying that antifas are harmless. I'm saying that antifas in the US are a harmless joke. > Any movement acting to normalize that kind of environment is just bad news waiting to happen. What makes you think I'm normalizing that kind of environment? It seems you failed to read my post: > It is good to see countries striving for a more neutral treatment of violent actions, from any ends of the political spectrum.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    Such condescending tone. Much patronizing. Very naive. Lots of jumping to conclusions here. You jumped to the conclusion that I was preaching directly at you. I'm generally writing primarily to 3rd party using the discussion as a framework. And no, considering what violent extremists have done in the 20th century, I don't think it's naive at all. What makes you think I'm normalizing that kind of environment? Nothing makes me think you are. However, by performing such actions and getting a free pass in the US press, Antifa are doing that kind of normalization. Abrogating people's human rights because of their politics -- this is something that belongs in 3rd world dictatorships, not on US soil. > It is good to see countries striving for a more neutral treatment of violent actions, from any ends of the political spectrum. Sorry if you felt I was attacking you. I entirely agree. I criticize the extremes.
angersock 9y ago
> While the radical left in the US exists, it is mostly harmless, unlike the radical right. This is patently false. It's just that there is a very long history in the 20th century of aiding and abetting the radical left, while crazy right-wingers tend to act out alone. Some survey essays and interesting reading here: https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/ https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/ and https://status451.com/2017/07/11/radical-book-club-the-decentralized-left/ https://status451.com/2017/07/11/radical-book-club-the-decen... .
briholt 9y ago
By wildly mischaracterizing Antifa a "harmless joke" you're tacitly condoning their violence.
- ucaetano 9y ago
  No.
lj3 9y ago
> In other words, it was a mirror-image of the US. No, that's exactly like the US. Has been since the 60s. Or do I have to whip out the statistics on left wing bombings in the 60s and 70s? Or the number of antifa on trial for assault in the past year alone?
- ucaetano 9y ago
  > Has been since the 60s. Or do I have to whip out the statistics No need to, I'll do it for you (oh, and this is from the Cato institute, so if there's any bias, it is pro-right): https://www.cato.org/blog/terrorism-deaths-ideology-charlottesville-anomaly https://www.cato.org/blog/terrorism-deaths-ideology-charlott... Terrorists have murdered 3,342 people on U.S. soil from 1992 through August 12, 2017: Right-wing: 219 deaths Left-wing: 23 deaths Ouch.
  - lj3 9y ago
    > Sources: Global Terrorism Database at the University of Maryland, RAND Corporation, ESRI, and author’s calculations. Nice try.
    - ucaetano 9y ago
      I'm waiting for your sources. Let me guess: you won't provide any.
ci5er 9y ago
This is a sensitive topic - and hard to comment on neutrally enough not to potentially offend someone. I'm going to try my best... > [Just in case it wasn't clear enough: antifas/radical-left in the US are pretty much a harmless joke, and by no means equivalent to the radical-right/extreme-right/alt-right/Nazis/white-supremacist/whatever threat] Are you sure? The neo-Nazis and KKK may number in the tens of thousands. The ctrl-left number (easily) 10x that, and have media support. And have a proclivity for violence even when the alt-right aren't around. They are funded and organized. They are on the move. Maybe this is democracy in action - but I see the alt-right (by the new new definition of neo-Nazi and KKK, not the old 4-chan definition), as a joke and that the Ctrl-Left is really becoming problematic. Am I wrong? (It's possible - because it has happened more than once before)
- ucaetano 9y ago
  I believe you are, if we consider antifas, hardcore marxists, etc. as the opposite of the alt-right. "The ctrl-left number" I don't understand what you mean by that, would you please clarify?
  - ci5er 9y ago
    Ctrl-left is the antipode to the Alt-right: Antifa. They appear to outnumber the neo-nazis and kkk by between 5:1 to 20:1. That's what I meant. i.e. I see them (as newly defined alt-right) as a joke. (well, and horrible)
    - ucaetano 9y ago
      They do? In the US? Where do you get those numbers from?

mhh__ 9y ago

Which country would that be?

ucaetano 9y ago
I'm not planning to answer that, but there are dozens (dozens!) that fit that description.
- Max_Mustermann 9y ago
  I'd go with Cuba!
  - ucaetano 9y ago
    Nope. In Cuba you can't even declare yourself a rightist without being thrown in jail.
Aardverk 9y ago
Probably Sweden, because he confused the word "manifestation" with "demonstration" which is what many Swedes do, even if their English is great.
- smallnamespace 9y ago
  Manifestation means demonstration in French as well
- ucaetano 9y ago
  Nope :) I can think of at least 5 languages that would make that mistake, probably representing dozens (Dozens!) of countries. Italian, French, Portuguese, Catalan, Corsican, etc... And I didn't confuse manifestation with demonstration. A demonstration IS a manifestation, but not all manifestations are demonstrations.

stcredzero 9y ago

antifas/radical-left in the US are pretty much a harmless joke They claim as their spiritual forebears, the "Red Shirts" who were part and parcel of the destabilization of the Weimar Republic. It's the clashes between the "Red Shirts" and the "Brown Shirts" that helped the Nazis rise to power there. They also claim some of the same forebears as the people who did this stuff in a 1st world industrialized country, very recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_Lead_(Italy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_Lead_(Italy) I've also been speaking to a number of Antifa supporters on social media. The "organization" doesn't do a good job of promoting a coherent ideology which supports the notion of human rights. If anything, their media output indicates they feel they can disdain human rights for their cause. More precisely, they declare that they can unilaterally, extra-judicially decide to withdraw human rights from certain people and act accordingly. This is plainly what they both do and say. Study your history. Violent clashes between extremists and the decay of the rule of law are the harbingers of a lot of very bad stuff. Any movement acting to normalize that kind of environment is just bad news waiting to happen. (EDIT: Yes, it's good that they managed to defend Cornell West. Genuine defense against physical attack is fine. Unprovoked attacks and vandalism aren't. You can't excuse someone's whole record based on one good thing they did.)

ucaetano 9y ago
[Edit: author made it clear he wasn't replying to me specifically, so the following post is irrelevant] > Study your history. Such condescending tone. Much patronizing. Very naive. I do study my history. I'm not saying that antifas are harmless. I'm saying that antifas in the US are a harmless joke. > Any movement acting to normalize that kind of environment is just bad news waiting to happen. What makes you think I'm normalizing that kind of environment? It seems you failed to read my post: > It is good to see countries striving for a more neutral treatment of violent actions, from any ends of the political spectrum.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  Such condescending tone. Much patronizing. Very naive. Lots of jumping to conclusions here. You jumped to the conclusion that I was preaching directly at you. I'm generally writing primarily to 3rd party using the discussion as a framework. And no, considering what violent extremists have done in the 20th century, I don't think it's naive at all. What makes you think I'm normalizing that kind of environment? Nothing makes me think you are. However, by performing such actions and getting a free pass in the US press, Antifa are doing that kind of normalization. Abrogating people's human rights because of their politics -- this is something that belongs in 3rd world dictatorships, not on US soil. > It is good to see countries striving for a more neutral treatment of violent actions, from any ends of the political spectrum. Sorry if you felt I was attacking you. I entirely agree. I criticize the extremes.

angersock 9y ago

> While the radical left in the US exists, it is mostly harmless, unlike the radical right. This is patently false. It's just that there is a very long history in the 20th century of aiding and abetting the radical left, while crazy right-wingers tend to act out alone. Some survey essays and interesting reading here: https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/ https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/ and https://status451.com/2017/07/11/radical-book-club-the-decentralized-left/ https://status451.com/2017/07/11/radical-book-club-the-decen... .

briholt 9y ago

By wildly mischaracterizing Antifa a "harmless joke" you're tacitly condoning their violence.

ucaetano 9y ago
No.

lj3 9y ago

> In other words, it was a mirror-image of the US. No, that's exactly like the US. Has been since the 60s. Or do I have to whip out the statistics on left wing bombings in the 60s and 70s? Or the number of antifa on trial for assault in the past year alone?

ucaetano 9y ago
> Has been since the 60s. Or do I have to whip out the statistics No need to, I'll do it for you (oh, and this is from the Cato institute, so if there's any bias, it is pro-right): https://www.cato.org/blog/terrorism-deaths-ideology-charlottesville-anomaly https://www.cato.org/blog/terrorism-deaths-ideology-charlott... Terrorists have murdered 3,342 people on U.S. soil from 1992 through August 12, 2017: Right-wing: 219 deaths Left-wing: 23 deaths Ouch.
- lj3 9y ago
  > Sources: Global Terrorism Database at the University of Maryland, RAND Corporation, ESRI, and author’s calculations. Nice try.
  - ucaetano 9y ago
    I'm waiting for your sources. Let me guess: you won't provide any.

ci5er 9y ago

This is a sensitive topic - and hard to comment on neutrally enough not to potentially offend someone. I'm going to try my best... > [Just in case it wasn't clear enough: antifas/radical-left in the US are pretty much a harmless joke, and by no means equivalent to the radical-right/extreme-right/alt-right/Nazis/white-supremacist/whatever threat] Are you sure? The neo-Nazis and KKK may number in the tens of thousands. The ctrl-left number (easily) 10x that, and have media support. And have a proclivity for violence even when the alt-right aren't around. They are funded and organized. They are on the move. Maybe this is democracy in action - but I see the alt-right (by the new new definition of neo-Nazi and KKK, not the old 4-chan definition), as a joke and that the Ctrl-Left is really becoming problematic. Am I wrong? (It's possible - because it has happened more than once before)

ucaetano 9y ago
I believe you are, if we consider antifas, hardcore marxists, etc. as the opposite of the alt-right. "The ctrl-left number" I don't understand what you mean by that, would you please clarify?
- ci5er 9y ago
  Ctrl-left is the antipode to the Alt-right: Antifa. They appear to outnumber the neo-nazis and kkk by between 5:1 to 20:1. That's what I meant. i.e. I see them (as newly defined alt-right) as a joke. (well, and horrible)
  - ucaetano 9y ago
    They do? In the US? Where do you get those numbers from?