7 ms·

So then I guess my takeaway is then that there's great and poor working expectations and conditions in both areas. I found the US to be a highly negative experi

So then I guess my takeaway is then that there's great and poor working expectations and conditions in both areas. I found the US to be a highly negative experience and don't wish the stress on anyone. Being able to go home at night and not have to be on call or work overtime because it's expected is a great relief. I'll take that over a 100k salary any day. And certainly over my middle income job in California. However since I'm in tech I also get free choice essentially. We in this industry have it pretty lucky in that our skills are easily transferable across borders. I am an American that found peace and happiness in Europe however because I am American you are right to say I'm biased. You don't live in a place all your life and not notice the negatives more.

holydude 9y ago
Well I guess this is a classic case of the grass is greener on the other side :-). Enjoy living in here.
ynniv 9y ago
There's so much variation that it's difficult to make a comparison. In my experience, it's reasonable for a senior developer in the US but not in SV to make over $130k in a 9-5 with a month's vacation. Compared to that, $60k and maybe an extra week's vacation doesn't look as nice. Developers are definitely pushed too hard in the US, but they are also definitely underpaid in Europe.
bussierem 9y ago
Despite the fact that all we can do here is argue using anecdotes, I'll toss mine in - I live in the US, not on the west coast (midwest for me). I make over 100k a year, I have excellent benefits, lots of vacation time, and when I leave work after 8 hours, nobody bothers me. I do feel incredibly lucky in this situation - I know not everyone gets the stuff I do. But I feel like maybe you might be mistaking "programming in SV/startup community" for "programming in the US". The rest of the country (for the most part) isn't as completely crazy and (sorry to say) idiotic with programming jobs and lifestyles as SV is.
- gtaylor 9y ago
  I'll add another one: I'm in SV, good money/benefits, work 40 hour weeks. I'm good at what I do but nowhere near world-class. There are great companies all around the world, and there are crap companies all over the world.
- jacobush 9y ago
  But in Sweden almost EVERYONE (full time workers) gets 5 weeks vacation, 4 weeks contiguous, no questions asked. Not just engineers at great companies.
  - devmunchies 9y ago
    Sounds like high-school teachers in the US. Even the same pay scale. From what people are saying (myself included) is that you can find those jobs in the US but possibly with double the salary. There's more variation.
    - alphaalpha101 9y ago
      I think you're still missing the point. It isn't all about what we can individually get. I don't want to live in a country where you have to have a special high-paying job to get fair and reasonable holidays and healthcare.
- cullenking 9y ago
  Our company is based in Oregon, not a typical "startup" in that we are a bootstrapped lifestyle business, but we pay competitive wages, full good medical/dental/vision, and a 10% matched 401k. We have lax vacation time policies, typically meaning around four weeks, plus three months paternity and maternity. People work their forty and enjoy frequent three day weekends. We make software for bicyclists so most of our team ride a lot, and we comp all those expenses and a good amount of their fun bike trips. Not to mention a 2k bike budget when they get hired. All that, and we still have a hell of a time finding good candidates with the right attitude. Blows my mind that I can read people here saying they have to move out of the country to feel respected, and we have a hard time finding people... Just another anecdotal rant to add to the pile :)
whipoodle 9y ago
In conclusion, America is a land of contrasts.
smokeyj 9y ago
The developer market is so much bigger than the valley. I went there and left because, LOL like I'm joining a startup for 150K to live in SF. If you don't care about brand name then work in other parts of the country, even remote. Easily pull down six figures and live like a king compared to Europeans. Typing this from Europe.
WC3w6pXxgGd 9y ago
There are LOTS of American companies. You just happened to work for one with on call and work overtime. Same as the fact there are loads of European companies with on call and employees work overtime.

holydude 9y ago

Well I guess this is a classic case of the grass is greener on the other side :-). Enjoy living in here.

ynniv 9y ago

There's so much variation that it's difficult to make a comparison. In my experience, it's reasonable for a senior developer in the US but not in SV to make over $130k in a 9-5 with a month's vacation. Compared to that, $60k and maybe an extra week's vacation doesn't look as nice. Developers are definitely pushed too hard in the US, but they are also definitely underpaid in Europe.

bussierem 9y ago

Despite the fact that all we can do here is argue using anecdotes, I'll toss mine in - I live in the US, not on the west coast (midwest for me). I make over 100k a year, I have excellent benefits, lots of vacation time, and when I leave work after 8 hours, nobody bothers me. I do feel incredibly lucky in this situation - I know not everyone gets the stuff I do. But I feel like maybe you might be mistaking "programming in SV/startup community" for "programming in the US". The rest of the country (for the most part) isn't as completely crazy and (sorry to say) idiotic with programming jobs and lifestyles as SV is.

gtaylor 9y ago
I'll add another one: I'm in SV, good money/benefits, work 40 hour weeks. I'm good at what I do but nowhere near world-class. There are great companies all around the world, and there are crap companies all over the world.
jacobush 9y ago
But in Sweden almost EVERYONE (full time workers) gets 5 weeks vacation, 4 weeks contiguous, no questions asked. Not just engineers at great companies.
- devmunchies 9y ago
  Sounds like high-school teachers in the US. Even the same pay scale. From what people are saying (myself included) is that you can find those jobs in the US but possibly with double the salary. There's more variation.
  - alphaalpha101 9y ago
    I think you're still missing the point. It isn't all about what we can individually get. I don't want to live in a country where you have to have a special high-paying job to get fair and reasonable holidays and healthcare.
cullenking 9y ago
Our company is based in Oregon, not a typical "startup" in that we are a bootstrapped lifestyle business, but we pay competitive wages, full good medical/dental/vision, and a 10% matched 401k. We have lax vacation time policies, typically meaning around four weeks, plus three months paternity and maternity. People work their forty and enjoy frequent three day weekends. We make software for bicyclists so most of our team ride a lot, and we comp all those expenses and a good amount of their fun bike trips. Not to mention a 2k bike budget when they get hired. All that, and we still have a hell of a time finding good candidates with the right attitude. Blows my mind that I can read people here saying they have to move out of the country to feel respected, and we have a hard time finding people... Just another anecdotal rant to add to the pile :)

whipoodle 9y ago

In conclusion, America is a land of contrasts.

smokeyj 9y ago

The developer market is so much bigger than the valley. I went there and left because, LOL like I'm joining a startup for 150K to live in SF. If you don't care about brand name then work in other parts of the country, even remote. Easily pull down six figures and live like a king compared to Europeans. Typing this from Europe.

WC3w6pXxgGd 9y ago

There are LOTS of American companies. You just happened to work for one with on call and work overtime. Same as the fact there are loads of European companies with on call and employees work overtime.