8 ms·

If I see something that is both "free" and "in-app purchases", it already greatly reduces the chance I'll even bother to download because so damned many of thes

If I see something that is both "free" and "in-app purchases", it already greatly reduces the chance I'll even bother to download because so damned many of these are just terrible experiences. On the off chance I bother to look one step further and preview the "top in-app purchases", I usually see something totally unsurprising like the absurd "$9.99 gem bags" or whatever. Please, please just start charging for apps again. I specifically search for "pay once and never again" apps now.

BoorishBears 9y ago
The numbers don't agree with your claims
- Nicksil 9y ago
  What numbers, claims? OP was speaking of personal experience.
  - BoorishBears 9y ago
    > Please, please just start charging for apps again The top grossing apps are all free no matter where you look, if charging for apps was profitable we'd expect to see at least some paid apps right?: https://thinkgaming.com/app-sales-data/ https://thinkgaming.com/app-sales-data/ https://play.google.com/store/apps/collection/topgrossing https://play.google.com/store/apps/collection/topgrossing? hl=en It's well known in app development that not having a free app will seriously hamper your traction. The only apps I've seen get away with it are technical utility apps, and remakes/releases of established games for non-mobile (GTA, FF, RCT, etc.)
- kerkeslager 9y ago
  The numbers don't oppose his claims either. The numbers support a claim that in-app purchases make more money, but this should not be mistaken for proof that in-app purchases provide a better user experience.
  - BoorishBears 9y ago
    To me it's a non-starter to ask app developers pouring time and effort into apps to take money off the table because of the opinion of a minority. So since the numbers show almost every top grossing app on multiple aggregators is free, it's not really an actionable request from my POV as a developer.
    - kerkeslager 9y ago
      Do you have any evidence that it's the opinion of a minority? People put down money for in-app purchases because they encourage addictive behaviors. I don't think it's a non-starter to ask people to give up money to behave with conscience. There are many areas where we ask and even mandate businesses to behave ethically.
      - BoorishBears 9y ago
        I'm a firm believer of people voting with their wallets. And their wallets point to an aversion to upfront payment. And IAP != encouraging addictive behavior. You're conflating mobile games that use IAP and very specific patterns with IAP. IAP are also used for simple things like providing a "paid ad-free version" within a single app, or to unlock additional functionality. The trend of people having an aversion to paying up front applies to all mobile apps, not just games.
        kerkeslager 9y ago
        If income indicates ethical behavior, why are murderous drug lords so rich? People vote for all sorts of awful things with their money. It's ridiculous to assume that means the people they bout for are behaving ethically.
- Beltiras 9y ago
  I'm sure there's a market for both.
joelrunyon 9y ago
> Please, please just start charging for apps again. I specifically search for "pay once and never again" apps now. To be honest - as an independent app store developer, these are REALLY hard to maintain just because you need to balance the need for ongoing development w/ servicing existing customers. Most app price points don't allow for this, since many customers are outraged that you would have the gall to even charge for an app (everything should be free, right?). We've done well at doing both - and trying to add ONLY subscription services for features that are useful to users who use the app month over month.
- eitland 9y ago
  I'm happy to to unlock features that was developed after I bought it. On the other hand I really don’t want to pay USD10 a month for access to premium features that run on my phone. Oh. And yes. I prefer as much as realistically possible to run on my phone. And I'm fairly sure I have sometimes paid for apps I really like even if I'm not sure I'll use them - just to reward the developer and incentivice them to develop more good apps.
  - AlexandrB 9y ago
    > And I'm fairly sure I have sometimes paid for apps I really like even if I'm not sure I'll use them - just to reward the developer and incentivice them to develop more good apps. I do this too. Subscriptions usually flip the bozo bit for me.
- dabockster 9y ago
  > since many customers are outraged that you would have the gall to even charge for an app (everything should be free, right?) Do you even want those kinds of customers in the first place? I've found that paid apps tend to have higher quality customers instead of the bottom of the barrel type of customer that flocks to Clash of Clans.
  - hehheh 9y ago
    We're already talking about reducing the install base by over 95% (in my experience) by having no free option. It's hard to get too picky about who installs your app when you're at that level, IMO.
wyattjoh 9y ago
Completely agree. I'll often take a look at the "top in-app purchases" as well. "$9.99", ok, but if I see a "$129.99" for a "big crate of gems"... I just got to question how the developers felt that it was morally acceptable to create a toxic enough app experience that drives users to use in app purchases through deceptive tactics during the first few minutes of play to go and drop +$100 on virtual gems.
- yohann305 9y ago
  The $129.99 is not meant to be purchased. It's mostly a psychological artifact to make other in-app products seem more affordable.
  - Danihan 9y ago
    I don't know, that's really not that much depending on the quality and quantity of product you receive. Do you have actual stats on how many people purchase this sort of thing, or are you just guessing?
    - eric_h 9y ago
      The number of people that do is quite small as a percentage of users who do it, but quite significant as a percentage of revenue for the company selling those packages. Free-to-play is just like the alcohol and gambling industries, a large fraction of revenue comes from a small fraction of players.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Not necessarily. Apps like this tend to make a huge portion of their revenue from "whales" who spend crazy amounts of money: http://www.adweek.com/digital/infographic-whales-account-for-70-of-in-app-purchase-revenue/ http://www.adweek.com/digital/infographic-whales-account-for... I'm sure the anchoring effect helps too, of course.
dkersten 9y ago
Completely agree. It's often the first filter when I'm looking for apps.
seanalltogether 9y ago
If Apple and Android had a separate search/install/purchase experience based around demoing games and unlocking the full version, I would buy so much more then I currently do.
- ucaetano 9y ago
  Android has (with the Play Store): http://www.androidauthority.com/how-to-get-refund-apps-google-play-store-673644/ http://www.androidauthority.com/how-to-get-refund-apps-googl...
  - skybrian 9y ago
    It seems to have changed? Apparently, getting a refund is no longer guaranteed [1]. Also, compare with Kindle, where you can download a sample of any book you like, and it just sits until you get around to reading it. Once you finish the sample, you can decide whether to buy it. I think that model is closer to free with in-app purchases than anything else. [1] https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/2479637?hl=en https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/2479637?hl=en
    - homero 9y ago
      Wow! It did change! When? Went from 2 days to 15 minutes to none.
  - jafingi 9y ago
    Same with App Store. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204084 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204084
- blackoil 9y ago
  Windows Phone had tried that, with some games marketplace had two links, Buy and Try Demo. So was time or feature limited and you can purchase normally from an in game link, to unlock the full version.
- _pmf_ 9y ago
  Basically, apps that use a single in-app purchase to unlock the full version should not be lumped into the micro-transaction crap pile and should be clearly marked as such.
ineptech 9y ago
> If I see something that is both "free" and "in-app purchases", it already greatly reduces the chance I'll even bother to download If a free app starts out with limited functionality for trialing, with a (one-time) in-app-purchase to unlock the full features, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Follow-up: if it's a good thing, how should the app developer make it clear that it's not crapware? (asking for a friend)
- patmcc 9y ago
  That's my personal favourite for apps, but it's impossible to tell from a glance whether the "in-app purchases" label means you just buy it once (like Super Mario Run) or it'll be a constant push to spend more and more (nearly every other app). That's a tough one, especially for small developers.
  - ikeboy 9y ago
    Look whether "top in app purchase" is "unlock full game" or "buy gameXYZ coins" etc
    - squeaky-clean 9y ago
      Is this iOS only, or maybe I'm very bad at searching? I don't see anywhere in the Play Store to view the top in-app purchases for an app.
  - jclardy 9y ago
    This is the true problem. Apple is pushing in-app subscriptions on developers now...but as a developer you have no way to inform your customer of this. We have a SaaS business, and still get 1 out of 10 reviews complaining that there is a subscription. We state that it requires a sub in the first line of the app subscription, but that is not enough.
- Flow 9y ago
  Pay to get rid of the ads and get some more functionality seems fine to me. But it goes the other way too. I bought Bad Piggies some years ago. I play it on vacations. And this vacation I started it and just couldn't figure out how to start a level. There were several buttons but they all seemed to start fullscreen unskippable ads for other games instead of the game. I tried several times and gave up. I'm not sure there still is a game in there. I think behavior like this should not be allowed by Apple.
Stanleyc23 9y ago
I know people who have worked in the big mobile gaming companies and I can tell you that you're not in their target revenue generating demographic. They have those gem bags for the 'whales' that will spend hundreds or even thousands on a game to offset all other lower or zero ROI users. Power law strikes again.
com2kid 9y ago
> Please, please just start charging for apps again. I specifically search for "pay once and never again" apps now. I mostly agree, with the exception of a FEW good game publishers that have an ad supported version where ads can be disabled via a one time payment. Best of both worlds. Another example I've seen is extended demos that have an unlock for the full game. Solitairica does this well, the free game by itself is a good three or so hours, and a one time payment gets another 20+ hours of gameplay, and more DLC is available after that. Unfortunately the app store doesn't have a way to search for "No repeat IAP for in game currency", which is what I really want to avoid.
nsxwolf 9y ago
Get yourself a Nintendo 3DS and you'll be a lot happier. I quit "gaming" on the iPhone years ago because of all this microtransaction garbage.
- scrame 9y ago
  Absolutely. I've gotten in a few threads of apple fans insisting that $10-30 for a game is ridiculous because they once played angry birds for over an hour. Mobile games are almost always terrible just for three simple fact that touch screens really don't work for a lot of kinda of games. The DS line is cheaper, more durable and longer lived than your average mobile device anyway. Though, Nintendo has been experimenting with IAP and F2P stuff, which I just try to avoid.
- Endy 9y ago
  I prefer the original DS or Lite over the 3DS - there's too much internet garbage on my gaming device. Plus, region-locking. So, no.
baddox 9y ago
The thing is, I used to have no problem with free apps with in-app purchases, because that used to indicate that you just got a free sample (e.g. a few levels of a game) and the option to purchase the full game. I have no problem with in-app purchases that aren't depletable, like "gems," but I don't see that model any more either.
- ashark 9y ago
  Apple's needed for some time to create a "demo" category and/or feature for apps, with upgrades to those distinct from consumable or add-on purchases. Mixing all that together is part (though only part) of why I avoid browsing the app store.
jimmies 9y ago
With apps that are utilities, it's fine to charge once. Like how one would charge once for their hammer in store. The "in-app purchase" thing is good when someone designs their "app" like a fucking cigarette hit (or a cup of coffee). They have to make the user desire that hit every day. Games do that because they are addictive.
lancewiggs 9y ago
A mandate from Apple to provide and obviously display an "unlock everything forever" option in-app purchase would go a long way. The whale hunters would have absurdly large numbers for this and make it obvious that the game is a scam. Every other game could be unlocked for, say, the price of a good console or steam game.

BoorishBears 9y ago

The numbers don't agree with your claims

Nicksil 9y ago
What numbers, claims? OP was speaking of personal experience.
- BoorishBears 9y ago
  > Please, please just start charging for apps again The top grossing apps are all free no matter where you look, if charging for apps was profitable we'd expect to see at least some paid apps right?: https://thinkgaming.com/app-sales-data/ https://thinkgaming.com/app-sales-data/ https://play.google.com/store/apps/collection/topgrossing https://play.google.com/store/apps/collection/topgrossing? hl=en It's well known in app development that not having a free app will seriously hamper your traction. The only apps I've seen get away with it are technical utility apps, and remakes/releases of established games for non-mobile (GTA, FF, RCT, etc.)
kerkeslager 9y ago
The numbers don't oppose his claims either. The numbers support a claim that in-app purchases make more money, but this should not be mistaken for proof that in-app purchases provide a better user experience.
- BoorishBears 9y ago
  To me it's a non-starter to ask app developers pouring time and effort into apps to take money off the table because of the opinion of a minority. So since the numbers show almost every top grossing app on multiple aggregators is free, it's not really an actionable request from my POV as a developer.
  - kerkeslager 9y ago
    Do you have any evidence that it's the opinion of a minority? People put down money for in-app purchases because they encourage addictive behaviors. I don't think it's a non-starter to ask people to give up money to behave with conscience. There are many areas where we ask and even mandate businesses to behave ethically.
    - BoorishBears 9y ago
      I'm a firm believer of people voting with their wallets. And their wallets point to an aversion to upfront payment. And IAP != encouraging addictive behavior. You're conflating mobile games that use IAP and very specific patterns with IAP. IAP are also used for simple things like providing a "paid ad-free version" within a single app, or to unlock additional functionality. The trend of people having an aversion to paying up front applies to all mobile apps, not just games.
      - kerkeslager 9y ago
        If income indicates ethical behavior, why are murderous drug lords so rich? People vote for all sorts of awful things with their money. It's ridiculous to assume that means the people they bout for are behaving ethically.
Beltiras 9y ago
I'm sure there's a market for both.

joelrunyon 9y ago

> Please, please just start charging for apps again. I specifically search for "pay once and never again" apps now. To be honest - as an independent app store developer, these are REALLY hard to maintain just because you need to balance the need for ongoing development w/ servicing existing customers. Most app price points don't allow for this, since many customers are outraged that you would have the gall to even charge for an app (everything should be free, right?). We've done well at doing both - and trying to add ONLY subscription services for features that are useful to users who use the app month over month.

eitland 9y ago
I'm happy to to unlock features that was developed after I bought it. On the other hand I really don’t want to pay USD10 a month for access to premium features that run on my phone. Oh. And yes. I prefer as much as realistically possible to run on my phone. And I'm fairly sure I have sometimes paid for apps I really like even if I'm not sure I'll use them - just to reward the developer and incentivice them to develop more good apps.
- AlexandrB 9y ago
  > And I'm fairly sure I have sometimes paid for apps I really like even if I'm not sure I'll use them - just to reward the developer and incentivice them to develop more good apps. I do this too. Subscriptions usually flip the bozo bit for me.
dabockster 9y ago
> since many customers are outraged that you would have the gall to even charge for an app (everything should be free, right?) Do you even want those kinds of customers in the first place? I've found that paid apps tend to have higher quality customers instead of the bottom of the barrel type of customer that flocks to Clash of Clans.
- hehheh 9y ago
  We're already talking about reducing the install base by over 95% (in my experience) by having no free option. It's hard to get too picky about who installs your app when you're at that level, IMO.

wyattjoh 9y ago

Completely agree. I'll often take a look at the "top in-app purchases" as well. "$9.99", ok, but if I see a "$129.99" for a "big crate of gems"... I just got to question how the developers felt that it was morally acceptable to create a toxic enough app experience that drives users to use in app purchases through deceptive tactics during the first few minutes of play to go and drop +$100 on virtual gems.

yohann305 9y ago
The $129.99 is not meant to be purchased. It's mostly a psychological artifact to make other in-app products seem more affordable.
- Danihan 9y ago
  I don't know, that's really not that much depending on the quality and quantity of product you receive. Do you have actual stats on how many people purchase this sort of thing, or are you just guessing?
  - eric_h 9y ago
    The number of people that do is quite small as a percentage of users who do it, but quite significant as a percentage of revenue for the company selling those packages. Free-to-play is just like the alcohol and gambling industries, a large fraction of revenue comes from a small fraction of players.
- mikeash 9y ago
  Not necessarily. Apps like this tend to make a huge portion of their revenue from "whales" who spend crazy amounts of money: http://www.adweek.com/digital/infographic-whales-account-for-70-of-in-app-purchase-revenue/ http://www.adweek.com/digital/infographic-whales-account-for... I'm sure the anchoring effect helps too, of course.

dkersten 9y ago

Completely agree. It's often the first filter when I'm looking for apps.

seanalltogether 9y ago

If Apple and Android had a separate search/install/purchase experience based around demoing games and unlocking the full version, I would buy so much more then I currently do.

ucaetano 9y ago
Android has (with the Play Store): http://www.androidauthority.com/how-to-get-refund-apps-google-play-store-673644/ http://www.androidauthority.com/how-to-get-refund-apps-googl...
- skybrian 9y ago
  It seems to have changed? Apparently, getting a refund is no longer guaranteed [1]. Also, compare with Kindle, where you can download a sample of any book you like, and it just sits until you get around to reading it. Once you finish the sample, you can decide whether to buy it. I think that model is closer to free with in-app purchases than anything else. [1] https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/2479637?hl=en https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/2479637?hl=en
  - homero 9y ago
    Wow! It did change! When? Went from 2 days to 15 minutes to none.
- jafingi 9y ago
  Same with App Store. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204084 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204084
blackoil 9y ago
Windows Phone had tried that, with some games marketplace had two links, Buy and Try Demo. So was time or feature limited and you can purchase normally from an in game link, to unlock the full version.
_pmf_ 9y ago
Basically, apps that use a single in-app purchase to unlock the full version should not be lumped into the micro-transaction crap pile and should be clearly marked as such.

ineptech 9y ago

> If I see something that is both "free" and "in-app purchases", it already greatly reduces the chance I'll even bother to download If a free app starts out with limited functionality for trialing, with a (one-time) in-app-purchase to unlock the full features, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Follow-up: if it's a good thing, how should the app developer make it clear that it's not crapware? (asking for a friend)

patmcc 9y ago
That's my personal favourite for apps, but it's impossible to tell from a glance whether the "in-app purchases" label means you just buy it once (like Super Mario Run) or it'll be a constant push to spend more and more (nearly every other app). That's a tough one, especially for small developers.
- ikeboy 9y ago
  Look whether "top in app purchase" is "unlock full game" or "buy gameXYZ coins" etc
  - squeaky-clean 9y ago
    Is this iOS only, or maybe I'm very bad at searching? I don't see anywhere in the Play Store to view the top in-app purchases for an app.
- jclardy 9y ago
  This is the true problem. Apple is pushing in-app subscriptions on developers now...but as a developer you have no way to inform your customer of this. We have a SaaS business, and still get 1 out of 10 reviews complaining that there is a subscription. We state that it requires a sub in the first line of the app subscription, but that is not enough.
Flow 9y ago
Pay to get rid of the ads and get some more functionality seems fine to me. But it goes the other way too. I bought Bad Piggies some years ago. I play it on vacations. And this vacation I started it and just couldn't figure out how to start a level. There were several buttons but they all seemed to start fullscreen unskippable ads for other games instead of the game. I tried several times and gave up. I'm not sure there still is a game in there. I think behavior like this should not be allowed by Apple.

Stanleyc23 9y ago

I know people who have worked in the big mobile gaming companies and I can tell you that you're not in their target revenue generating demographic. They have those gem bags for the 'whales' that will spend hundreds or even thousands on a game to offset all other lower or zero ROI users. Power law strikes again.

com2kid 9y ago

> Please, please just start charging for apps again. I specifically search for "pay once and never again" apps now. I mostly agree, with the exception of a FEW good game publishers that have an ad supported version where ads can be disabled via a one time payment. Best of both worlds. Another example I've seen is extended demos that have an unlock for the full game. Solitairica does this well, the free game by itself is a good three or so hours, and a one time payment gets another 20+ hours of gameplay, and more DLC is available after that. Unfortunately the app store doesn't have a way to search for "No repeat IAP for in game currency", which is what I really want to avoid.

nsxwolf 9y ago

Get yourself a Nintendo 3DS and you'll be a lot happier. I quit "gaming" on the iPhone years ago because of all this microtransaction garbage.

scrame 9y ago
Absolutely. I've gotten in a few threads of apple fans insisting that $10-30 for a game is ridiculous because they once played angry birds for over an hour. Mobile games are almost always terrible just for three simple fact that touch screens really don't work for a lot of kinda of games. The DS line is cheaper, more durable and longer lived than your average mobile device anyway. Though, Nintendo has been experimenting with IAP and F2P stuff, which I just try to avoid.
Endy 9y ago
I prefer the original DS or Lite over the 3DS - there's too much internet garbage on my gaming device. Plus, region-locking. So, no.

baddox 9y ago

The thing is, I used to have no problem with free apps with in-app purchases, because that used to indicate that you just got a free sample (e.g. a few levels of a game) and the option to purchase the full game. I have no problem with in-app purchases that aren't depletable, like "gems," but I don't see that model any more either.

ashark 9y ago
Apple's needed for some time to create a "demo" category and/or feature for apps, with upgrades to those distinct from consumable or add-on purchases. Mixing all that together is part (though only part) of why I avoid browsing the app store.

jimmies 9y ago

With apps that are utilities, it's fine to charge once. Like how one would charge once for their hammer in store. The "in-app purchase" thing is good when someone designs their "app" like a fucking cigarette hit (or a cup of coffee). They have to make the user desire that hit every day. Games do that because they are addictive.

lancewiggs 9y ago

A mandate from Apple to provide and obviously display an "unlock everything forever" option in-app purchase would go a long way. The whale hunters would have absurdly large numbers for this and make it obvious that the game is a scam. Every other game could be unlocked for, say, the price of a good console or steam game.