7 ms·

ID laws are most likely to exclude young, black, low income and (legal) immigrant voters who are less likely to have drivers licenses than others and are more l

ID laws are most likely to exclude young, black, low income and (legal) immigrant voters who are less likely to have drivers licenses than others and are more likely to vote for democrats. (here is one study https://apnews.com/1dba56c5f8f7430f859748aff4405b10/study-voter-id-laws-cut-turnout-blacks-young https://apnews.com/1dba56c5f8f7430f859748aff4405b10/study-vo...) Some of the laws are explicitly designed to favor demographics that skew conservative and exclude others - for example Texas accepts gun licenses as valid IDs but excludes student IDs.

sweep4r 9y ago
There are two things I don't understand. 1) How come there isn't a standard, mandatory, country-wide ID card system in place? 2) If you can vote without an ID card, what prevents illegals from voting as somebody else?
- Fej 9y ago
  1. The American tradition is distrust of government, especially the federal government. A mandatory national ID card would cause riots in the streets. That being said, it kinda exists already in the form of the Social Security card & number. If a baby is born in a hospital, they get one at birth. If not, the parents can apply for one. It is the de facto way to prove citizenship. Everyone who processes sensitive information asks for it (banks, etc.) 2. Persons in the US illegally don't vote because the benefit is nonexistent and the punishment is very harsh.
  - sweep4r 9y ago
    2. doesn't really convince me--they are illegals, who are staying in a country with no regard for the law. "Harsh punishment" doesn't sound like something that would deter them from doing something like voting, as that could improve their lives greatly. Anyway I want to know, aren't you identified in any way at all when you vote? Don't you have to pretend you're someone who's on a list, at least?
    - pedrosorio 9y ago
      Do you really believe the cost-benefit analysis is in favor of voting for a single illegal immigrant when the punishment is deportation and their influence on the outcome of the vote is ~0? Or do you believe there is an underground organization that mobilizes this "illegal vote" by insuring millions of people against the adverse consequences of being caught voting in order to push for the legalization of all undocumented immigrants?
      - sweep4r 9y ago
        I am sure illegals do dozens of things every day that could get them deported. I also come from a place where voter fraud is real and significant. Underground organisations that bring old/disabled people to the urns to make them vote whatever they want do exist. We know about that. So whatever is happening in the US won't really surprise me. (Not to say something like this happens in the US, but it's perfectly possible, and it is foolish to simply outright deny that possibility)
        janywer 9y ago
        Where is that place and why isn't anyone doing anything about it?
        rsynnott 9y ago
        > I am sure illegals do dozens of things every day that could get them deported. What? _Dozens_? Committing dozens of crimes a day sounds like a lot of work. Are you under the impression that all undocumented immigrants in the US are in the Mafia, or something?
        splintercell 9y ago
        You're thinking of real crimes, but he is talking about actions which are perfectly legal for a citizen but illegal for an illegal immigrant, like working, using fake papers, driving without a permit, depositing money in someone else's name, etc. If you're already doing all these things, what's illegal voting added to it.
- OJFord 9y ago
  > How come there isn't a standard, mandatory, country-wide ID card system in place? This doesn't exist in the UK. The USA is bigger, more distrusting of government, and would presumably have to deliberate over whether it was really to be a national system, or rather - perhaps mandatory - state-level systems.
- walshemj 9y ago
  quite a lot of anglo saxon countries distrust national id's and a national register can be abused eg rounding up he jews in Europe. More recently I worked for a Lebanese company in the uk and one of my Lebanese coworkers had had a close family member killed as when he was stopped by a militia had had the wrong religion on his card
rsynnott 9y ago
We need ID to vote in Ireland (in theory; it's spot-checked), but the range of things accepted as ID are much greater. In particular, a debit or credit card can be used, as can a social security card. Since basically everyone either has a job (and thus needs a bank account) or draws some sort of social welfare, or both, nearly everyone has one of these anyway. Most developed countries just have a mandatory ID card, of course. The US states requiring ID would be much less worrying if they would accept something that everyone has. It's the selectiveness about forms of ID that makes the motives clear...
- an_account 9y ago
  A lot of people in the US (even ones with jobs) are unbanked so wouldn’t have even an ATM card.
  - rsynnott 9y ago
    Ah, right. Most employers here wouldn't be enthusiastic about paying people any way other than transfer to a bank/credit-union account these days.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > The US states requiring ID would be much less worrying if they would accept something that everyone has. Sure, but a key purpose of voter IDs laws, as proponents will sometimes admit in public (or in remarks that aren't intended to become public but do) is to tip the partisan scales in elections.
rdtsc 9y ago
Is it possible to have national ID laws and not let states like Texas mess with those. Maybe that's not what you meant it seems a bit racist assuming that young black youth who want to vote are too incompetent to get an ID. But presumably poor white or asian ones are smarter and more resourceful. Having lived in poor neighborhoods with various races I'd say that not true based on my experience.
- Pulcinella 9y ago
  You're the one bringing up incompetence. It's hard to get a driver's license or state ID when you have no car, work a full time job or two, the legislature closed your "local" DMV and the closest one is an hour away by bus.
  - rdtsc 9y ago
    I was trying to figure out what OP meant by the fact that black young won't be able to get IDs to vote. So presumption of incompetence was a guess there.
- eru 9y ago
  > [...] it seems a bit racist assuming that young black youth who want to vote are too incompetent to get an ID. No need to assume, you can just check the statistics.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  Black people are more likely to be poor in the first place. (Not that a policy which selectively disenfranchised the poor would be acceptable if it were race neutral in effect.) And, it may or may not be Constitutionally possible to have a centralized national ID, but it's certainly not politically likely.

sweep4r 9y ago

There are two things I don't understand. 1) How come there isn't a standard, mandatory, country-wide ID card system in place? 2) If you can vote without an ID card, what prevents illegals from voting as somebody else?

Fej 9y ago
1. The American tradition is distrust of government, especially the federal government. A mandatory national ID card would cause riots in the streets. That being said, it kinda exists already in the form of the Social Security card & number. If a baby is born in a hospital, they get one at birth. If not, the parents can apply for one. It is the de facto way to prove citizenship. Everyone who processes sensitive information asks for it (banks, etc.) 2. Persons in the US illegally don't vote because the benefit is nonexistent and the punishment is very harsh.
- sweep4r 9y ago
  2. doesn't really convince me--they are illegals, who are staying in a country with no regard for the law. "Harsh punishment" doesn't sound like something that would deter them from doing something like voting, as that could improve their lives greatly. Anyway I want to know, aren't you identified in any way at all when you vote? Don't you have to pretend you're someone who's on a list, at least?
  - pedrosorio 9y ago
    Do you really believe the cost-benefit analysis is in favor of voting for a single illegal immigrant when the punishment is deportation and their influence on the outcome of the vote is ~0? Or do you believe there is an underground organization that mobilizes this "illegal vote" by insuring millions of people against the adverse consequences of being caught voting in order to push for the legalization of all undocumented immigrants?
    - sweep4r 9y ago
      I am sure illegals do dozens of things every day that could get them deported. I also come from a place where voter fraud is real and significant. Underground organisations that bring old/disabled people to the urns to make them vote whatever they want do exist. We know about that. So whatever is happening in the US won't really surprise me. (Not to say something like this happens in the US, but it's perfectly possible, and it is foolish to simply outright deny that possibility)
      - janywer 9y ago
        Where is that place and why isn't anyone doing anything about it?
      - rsynnott 9y ago
        > I am sure illegals do dozens of things every day that could get them deported. What? _Dozens_? Committing dozens of crimes a day sounds like a lot of work. Are you under the impression that all undocumented immigrants in the US are in the Mafia, or something?
        splintercell 9y ago
        You're thinking of real crimes, but he is talking about actions which are perfectly legal for a citizen but illegal for an illegal immigrant, like working, using fake papers, driving without a permit, depositing money in someone else's name, etc. If you're already doing all these things, what's illegal voting added to it.
OJFord 9y ago
> How come there isn't a standard, mandatory, country-wide ID card system in place? This doesn't exist in the UK. The USA is bigger, more distrusting of government, and would presumably have to deliberate over whether it was really to be a national system, or rather - perhaps mandatory - state-level systems.
walshemj 9y ago
quite a lot of anglo saxon countries distrust national id's and a national register can be abused eg rounding up he jews in Europe. More recently I worked for a Lebanese company in the uk and one of my Lebanese coworkers had had a close family member killed as when he was stopped by a militia had had the wrong religion on his card

rsynnott 9y ago

We need ID to vote in Ireland (in theory; it's spot-checked), but the range of things accepted as ID are much greater. In particular, a debit or credit card can be used, as can a social security card. Since basically everyone either has a job (and thus needs a bank account) or draws some sort of social welfare, or both, nearly everyone has one of these anyway. Most developed countries just have a mandatory ID card, of course. The US states requiring ID would be much less worrying if they would accept something that everyone has. It's the selectiveness about forms of ID that makes the motives clear...

an_account 9y ago
A lot of people in the US (even ones with jobs) are unbanked so wouldn’t have even an ATM card.
- rsynnott 9y ago
  Ah, right. Most employers here wouldn't be enthusiastic about paying people any way other than transfer to a bank/credit-union account these days.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> The US states requiring ID would be much less worrying if they would accept something that everyone has. Sure, but a key purpose of voter IDs laws, as proponents will sometimes admit in public (or in remarks that aren't intended to become public but do) is to tip the partisan scales in elections.

rdtsc 9y ago

Is it possible to have national ID laws and not let states like Texas mess with those. Maybe that's not what you meant it seems a bit racist assuming that young black youth who want to vote are too incompetent to get an ID. But presumably poor white or asian ones are smarter and more resourceful. Having lived in poor neighborhoods with various races I'd say that not true based on my experience.

Pulcinella 9y ago
You're the one bringing up incompetence. It's hard to get a driver's license or state ID when you have no car, work a full time job or two, the legislature closed your "local" DMV and the closest one is an hour away by bus.
- rdtsc 9y ago
  I was trying to figure out what OP meant by the fact that black young won't be able to get IDs to vote. So presumption of incompetence was a guess there.
eru 9y ago
> [...] it seems a bit racist assuming that young black youth who want to vote are too incompetent to get an ID. No need to assume, you can just check the statistics.
dragonwriter 9y ago
Black people are more likely to be poor in the first place. (Not that a policy which selectively disenfranchised the poor would be acceptable if it were race neutral in effect.) And, it may or may not be Constitutionally possible to have a centralized national ID, but it's certainly not politically likely.