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I agree this is probably a 1000x more effective way to get hired at engineering firms that are seeking out top talent. I think a big reason coding bootcamps ex

by gfodor 9y ago

I agree this is probably a 1000x more effective way to get hired at engineering firms that are seeking out top talent. I think a big reason coding bootcamps exist is because the mental model is that "pay money -> software job" -- it's an appealing idea, and doesn't necessarily mean the person is not going to put in the effort, but it's broken. I think it makes logical sense to someone that if they are going to pay lots of money for something, they think they are going to ultimately have an advantage over someone who took the path you mentioned, which is basically "free" other than opportunity cost. Surely, they must be getting something valuable for their money. Think of similar things like SAT test prep or other forms of job training that actually do legitimately teach trade skills that result in job placement that are hard to learn without experienced mentors, in person training, or expensive equipment. Unfortunately, the reality is the opposite in software engineering due to the nature of what we do and what makes people really good. You don't need much other than a computer, an internet connection, and focused time to build something noteworthy enough to cause potential employers to notice. The person above who built something from scratch on their own stands out head and shoulders above the sea of applicants from coding boot camps who have only done coursework.

speedplane 9y ago
Of course applicants "who built something from scratch" will stand out above bootcampers, and some can get into big tech firms with just a "computer," "internet connection" and "focus[]", but that's also a really tall order. There's nothing wrong with a "pay money -> software job" mentality, as long as the person is interested in the work, and puts in the effort. I know several people who came out of college with a humanities degrees only to become a poorly paid social media consultant or something similar. They didn't have the know-how to get started with software development on their own, but they enjoyed working with tech and were smart. They paid the $15k to the local bootcamp and within a few months got jobs increasing salaries from ~$30k to $80k (I know one who started well into six figures). We shouldn't lock people out just because they didn't get into coding at ten years old. Bootcamps often lead to solidly paying entry level coding jobs, a great lifestyle, along with the gratification of actually building something. Bootcamps serve a real need between self-study and a heavy-handed multi-year BS or MS. The driven MS or self-study guy or gal may get the better job, but bootcamps will get the candidate in the door quickly, and they can prove themselves while on the job.
- WhitneyLand 9y ago
  You disagreed with me, but upvoting your comment because the counterpoint is compelling. It's easy to assume resources are the key point - are people with less time/money well served by these bootcamps? However, it makes sense that individual personality traits like motivation, ambition, and comfort level with uncertainty / cutting your own path could matter. As aside I've always felt successful STEM people receive unbalanced praise, always credit for some ethereal genius, not enough credit for maniacal drive, near clinical obsession with goals, gall. Does the general public realize that everyone from Einstein to Musk would have been greatly diminished without these qualities?
  - speedplane 9y ago
    Motivation, ambition, and comfort with uncertainty are definitely huge factors in a successful career. STEM people are experts in their field, and they have a mountain of seemingly magical knowledge, but respect for their "genius" ignores these more universal and often more desirable attributes. I friends with an incredibly intelligent patent lawyer who quit her job to become an FBI agent. I know another really smart guy who took a huge pay cut from his big-tech job to be a reporter for the Wall Street Journal. They didn't quit their technical fields because it was too hard, they could easily handle the STEM jobs when they were thrown at them. I look at them now and see an even greater level of professionalism than they had in their previous positions, and that comes with a greater respect. Many STEM jobs often get that self-respect, and probably also FBI agents ans WSJ reporters, wish the same could be said about many other positions.

by gfodor 9y ago

speedplane 9y ago

Of course applicants "who built something from scratch" will stand out above bootcampers, and some can get into big tech firms with just a "computer," "internet connection" and "focus[]", but that's also a really tall order. There's nothing wrong with a "pay money -> software job" mentality, as long as the person is interested in the work, and puts in the effort. I know several people who came out of college with a humanities degrees only to become a poorly paid social media consultant or something similar. They didn't have the know-how to get started with software development on their own, but they enjoyed working with tech and were smart. They paid the $15k to the local bootcamp and within a few months got jobs increasing salaries from ~$30k to $80k (I know one who started well into six figures). We shouldn't lock people out just because they didn't get into coding at ten years old. Bootcamps often lead to solidly paying entry level coding jobs, a great lifestyle, along with the gratification of actually building something. Bootcamps serve a real need between self-study and a heavy-handed multi-year BS or MS. The driven MS or self-study guy or gal may get the better job, but bootcamps will get the candidate in the door quickly, and they can prove themselves while on the job.

WhitneyLand 9y ago
You disagreed with me, but upvoting your comment because the counterpoint is compelling. It's easy to assume resources are the key point - are people with less time/money well served by these bootcamps? However, it makes sense that individual personality traits like motivation, ambition, and comfort level with uncertainty / cutting your own path could matter. As aside I've always felt successful STEM people receive unbalanced praise, always credit for some ethereal genius, not enough credit for maniacal drive, near clinical obsession with goals, gall. Does the general public realize that everyone from Einstein to Musk would have been greatly diminished without these qualities?
- speedplane 9y ago
  Motivation, ambition, and comfort with uncertainty are definitely huge factors in a successful career. STEM people are experts in their field, and they have a mountain of seemingly magical knowledge, but respect for their "genius" ignores these more universal and often more desirable attributes. I friends with an incredibly intelligent patent lawyer who quit her job to become an FBI agent. I know another really smart guy who took a huge pay cut from his big-tech job to be a reporter for the Wall Street Journal. They didn't quit their technical fields because it was too hard, they could easily handle the STEM jobs when they were thrown at them. I look at them now and see an even greater level of professionalism than they had in their previous positions, and that comes with a greater respect. Many STEM jobs often get that self-respect, and probably also FBI agents ans WSJ reporters, wish the same could be said about many other positions.