5 ms·

I am not American so I don't understand this so please somebody explain. Is this guy being downvoted because it's thought to be racist to complain about illegal

I am not American so I don't understand this so please somebody explain. Is this guy being downvoted because it's thought to be racist to complain about illegals voting without them being citizens, or is this guy being downvoted because this fraud is thought to not happen?

kevinh 9y ago
He's being downvoted because voter fraud, if on the scale that Trump believes it is (millions of people), would be readily visible and provable. Instead it's a mechanism for enabling voter ID laws, which prevent demographics that trend Democrat from voting.
- sweep4r 9y ago
  How do voter ID laws prevent democrats from voting? We have to be fully identified in Europe to vote and parties from the left win elections just fine.
  - schwabacher 9y ago
    ID laws are most likely to exclude young, black, low income and (legal) immigrant voters who are less likely to have drivers licenses than others and are more likely to vote for democrats. (here is one study https://apnews.com/1dba56c5f8f7430f859748aff4405b10/study-voter-id-laws-cut-turnout-blacks-young https://apnews.com/1dba56c5f8f7430f859748aff4405b10/study-vo...) Some of the laws are explicitly designed to favor demographics that skew conservative and exclude others - for example Texas accepts gun licenses as valid IDs but excludes student IDs.
    - sweep4r 9y ago
      There are two things I don't understand. 1) How come there isn't a standard, mandatory, country-wide ID card system in place? 2) If you can vote without an ID card, what prevents illegals from voting as somebody else?
      - Fej 9y ago
        1. The American tradition is distrust of government, especially the federal government. A mandatory national ID card would cause riots in the streets. That being said, it kinda exists already in the form of the Social Security card & number. If a baby is born in a hospital, they get one at birth. If not, the parents can apply for one. It is the de facto way to prove citizenship. Everyone who processes sensitive information asks for it (banks, etc.) 2. Persons in the US illegally don't vote because the benefit is nonexistent and the punishment is very harsh.
        sweep4r 9y ago
        2. doesn't really convince me--they are illegals, who are staying in a country with no regard for the law. "Harsh punishment" doesn't sound like something that would deter them from doing something like voting, as that could improve their lives greatly. Anyway I want to know, aren't you identified in any way at all when you vote? Don't you have to pretend you're someone who's on a list, at least?
        pedrosorio 9y ago
        Do you really believe the cost-benefit analysis is in favor of voting for a single illegal immigrant when the punishment is deportation and their influence on the outcome of the vote is ~0? Or do you believe there is an underground organization that mobilizes this "illegal vote" by insuring millions of people against the adverse consequences of being caught voting in order to push for the legalization of all undocumented immigrants?
        sweep4r 9y ago
        I am sure illegals do dozens of things every day that could get them deported. I also come from a place where voter fraud is real and significant. Underground organisations that bring old/disabled people to the urns to make them vote whatever they want do exist. We know about that. So whatever is happening in the US won't really surprise me. (Not to say something like this happens in the US, but it's perfectly possible, and it is foolish to simply outright deny that possibility)
    - rsynnott 9y ago
      We need ID to vote in Ireland (in theory; it's spot-checked), but the range of things accepted as ID are much greater. In particular, a debit or credit card can be used, as can a social security card. Since basically everyone either has a job (and thus needs a bank account) or draws some sort of social welfare, or both, nearly everyone has one of these anyway. Most developed countries just have a mandatory ID card, of course. The US states requiring ID would be much less worrying if they would accept something that everyone has. It's the selectiveness about forms of ID that makes the motives clear...
      - an_account 9y ago
        A lot of people in the US (even ones with jobs) are unbanked so wouldn’t have even an ATM card.
        rsynnott 9y ago
        Ah, right. Most employers here wouldn't be enthusiastic about paying people any way other than transfer to a bank/credit-union account these days.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > The US states requiring ID would be much less worrying if they would accept something that everyone has. Sure, but a key purpose of voter IDs laws, as proponents will sometimes admit in public (or in remarks that aren't intended to become public but do) is to tip the partisan scales in elections.
    - rdtsc 9y ago
      Is it possible to have national ID laws and not let states like Texas mess with those. Maybe that's not what you meant it seems a bit racist assuming that young black youth who want to vote are too incompetent to get an ID. But presumably poor white or asian ones are smarter and more resourceful. Having lived in poor neighborhoods with various races I'd say that not true based on my experience.
      - Pulcinella 9y ago
        You're the one bringing up incompetence. It's hard to get a driver's license or state ID when you have no car, work a full time job or two, the legislature closed your "local" DMV and the closest one is an hour away by bus.
        rdtsc 9y ago
        I was trying to figure out what OP meant by the fact that black young won't be able to get IDs to vote. So presumption of incompetence was a guess there.
      - eru 9y ago
        > [...] it seems a bit racist assuming that young black youth who want to vote are too incompetent to get an ID. No need to assume, you can just check the statistics.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        Black people are more likely to be poor in the first place. (Not that a policy which selectively disenfranchised the poor would be acceptable if it were race neutral in effect.) And, it may or may not be Constitutionally possible to have a centralized national ID, but it's certainly not politically likely.
  - crooked-v 9y ago
    The voter ID laws in question are written to allow forms of ID overwhelmingly possessed by Republican demographics (for example, gun licenses), while disallowing forms of ID overwhelmingly possessed by Democratic demographics (for example, college-issued ID cards). On top of this, these laws generally come with extra burdens when getting a generic state-issued ID card (for example, requiring more paperwork to be shown for it), or are passed at the same time that state DMV offices in Democratic-leaning areas have their operating hours cut.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    > We have to be fully identified in Europe to vote Not true in the UK - last General Election, I walked into the Polling Station, handed over a polling card, confirmed the address WRITTEN ON THE CARD, and then voted as me. I could have picked up anyone's card from the block of flats I live in. Hell, I could probably have voted more than once if I'd been careful and timed multiple visits to avoid hitting the same checking people. And this is without even getting to the "you don't need a polling card to vote" bit.
  - rsynnott 9y ago
    > We have to be fully identified in Europe to vote Depends on the country. The UK doesn't require ID (except in Northern Ireland). Ireland requires ID, but it can be practically anything (bank cards, social security cards, student ID, work ID, birth certs, some bus passes...) Most other countries in Europe have mandatory ID for all citizens anyway, so requiring it to vote in less onerous. In the US, there's no national ID card, and the states which require ID to vote typically require ID that not everyone has, and that lower-income people who live in cities are particularly unlikely to have.
  - SeanLuke 9y ago
    Countries in Europe with voter ID also generally have mandatory IDs for all citizens and residents. But the United States does not have a mandatory ID. As a result, voter ID laws often turn on which form of ID you are permitted to provide. Many states with voter ID laws also have conveniently defined their set of acceptable IDs to be those which Republican voters are much more likely to have than Democrat voters, due to income and cultural disparities. Additionally some of these states offer some kind of universal ID for purposes of voting, but it will not be free or will be unusually difficult to obtain. This bias towards Republican voters is not by accident: multiple Republican-controlled legislatures have been quite open about their intent. It is one of several strategies being employed by Republicans to counter Democrat-leaning trends in voter demographics.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    The US has no national ID and states have no universal mandatory ID; there are existing biases in practical access to ID, and those have been unaddressed or exacerbated in schemes requiring ID for voting. A dramatic example would be Alabama adopting a voter ID requirement and then shortly after it became effective, closing the driver's license offices (where IDs are issued; driver's licenses are the main form of state ID and alternative non-driver IDs are generally issued by the same offices sice they use infrastructure originally built for driver's licenses) in 8 of 10 black-majority counties, including all those where that majority was 75%+ and including the five that voted most strongly Democratic in the preceding Presidential election. http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/09/alabama_sends_message_we_are_t.html http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/09/alabama_sends_me...
- rdtsc 9y ago
  > it's a mechanism for enabling voter ID laws, which prevent demographics that trend Democrat from voting. Which demographics are those?
  - eli 9y ago
    According to a GAO report: young people, newly registered voters and African-Americans were disproportionately affected. https://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-14-634 https://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-14-634
    - rdtsc 9y ago
      However I see that --- Five of these 10 studies found that ID requirements had no statistically significant effect on turnout; in contrast 4 studies found decreases in turnout and 1 found an increase in turnout that were statistically significant. --- And all the states includes in the study seems to have disagreed with the methodology used: --- In comments on draft report excerpts the Kansas, Tennessee, and Arkansas Secretary of State Offices disagreed with GAO's criteria for selecting treatment and comparison states and Kansas and Tennessee questioned the reliability of one dataset used to assess turnout. --- To me it seems the answer is then "let's have community outreach to help every eligible over get an acceptable ID. Even subsidize free ID that can be used for voting" not "let's not have any IDs". Also coming from Europe and knowing that other countries with even more poverty and somehow manage to have an ID https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_(India) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_(India) and here despite all the insinuations and allegations of voter fraud and all the talk and energy spent on elections people are still against IDs.
      - eli 9y ago
        I picked the GAO report because they have a reputation for solid, unbiased work. But a quick google will find you many other citations. Quite a few people have come independently to the conclusion that it decreases turnout among populations that tend to vote Democrat. So that's a problem. Making ID cards free would probably help, but the other issue is that you're weighing the potential disenfranchisement of some marginalized people on one side against a phantom "voter fraud" boogeyman on the other side. In-person voter fraud basically never happens. There's no need to take any steps to stamp it out. There are so many better ways to spend that time and effort -- improving the vote-by-mail process, to pick an easy example.
Hyperborian 9y ago
He's being downvoted because there has never been any evidence for any significant amount of voter fraud whatsoever, though many have looked carefully for it. It's not just thought not to be a problem, but KNOWN not to be a problem. The idea that large amounts of illegals are voting fraudulently is pure right-wing propaganda made up to justify minority disenfranchisement efforts.

kevinh 9y ago

He's being downvoted because voter fraud, if on the scale that Trump believes it is (millions of people), would be readily visible and provable. Instead it's a mechanism for enabling voter ID laws, which prevent demographics that trend Democrat from voting.

sweep4r 9y ago
How do voter ID laws prevent democrats from voting? We have to be fully identified in Europe to vote and parties from the left win elections just fine.
- schwabacher 9y ago
  ID laws are most likely to exclude young, black, low income and (legal) immigrant voters who are less likely to have drivers licenses than others and are more likely to vote for democrats. (here is one study https://apnews.com/1dba56c5f8f7430f859748aff4405b10/study-voter-id-laws-cut-turnout-blacks-young https://apnews.com/1dba56c5f8f7430f859748aff4405b10/study-vo...) Some of the laws are explicitly designed to favor demographics that skew conservative and exclude others - for example Texas accepts gun licenses as valid IDs but excludes student IDs.
  - sweep4r 9y ago
    There are two things I don't understand. 1) How come there isn't a standard, mandatory, country-wide ID card system in place? 2) If you can vote without an ID card, what prevents illegals from voting as somebody else?
    - Fej 9y ago
      1. The American tradition is distrust of government, especially the federal government. A mandatory national ID card would cause riots in the streets. That being said, it kinda exists already in the form of the Social Security card & number. If a baby is born in a hospital, they get one at birth. If not, the parents can apply for one. It is the de facto way to prove citizenship. Everyone who processes sensitive information asks for it (banks, etc.) 2. Persons in the US illegally don't vote because the benefit is nonexistent and the punishment is very harsh.
      - sweep4r 9y ago
        2. doesn't really convince me--they are illegals, who are staying in a country with no regard for the law. "Harsh punishment" doesn't sound like something that would deter them from doing something like voting, as that could improve their lives greatly. Anyway I want to know, aren't you identified in any way at all when you vote? Don't you have to pretend you're someone who's on a list, at least?
        pedrosorio 9y ago
        Do you really believe the cost-benefit analysis is in favor of voting for a single illegal immigrant when the punishment is deportation and their influence on the outcome of the vote is ~0? Or do you believe there is an underground organization that mobilizes this "illegal vote" by insuring millions of people against the adverse consequences of being caught voting in order to push for the legalization of all undocumented immigrants?
        sweep4r 9y ago
        I am sure illegals do dozens of things every day that could get them deported. I also come from a place where voter fraud is real and significant. Underground organisations that bring old/disabled people to the urns to make them vote whatever they want do exist. We know about that. So whatever is happening in the US won't really surprise me. (Not to say something like this happens in the US, but it's perfectly possible, and it is foolish to simply outright deny that possibility)
  - rsynnott 9y ago
    We need ID to vote in Ireland (in theory; it's spot-checked), but the range of things accepted as ID are much greater. In particular, a debit or credit card can be used, as can a social security card. Since basically everyone either has a job (and thus needs a bank account) or draws some sort of social welfare, or both, nearly everyone has one of these anyway. Most developed countries just have a mandatory ID card, of course. The US states requiring ID would be much less worrying if they would accept something that everyone has. It's the selectiveness about forms of ID that makes the motives clear...
    - an_account 9y ago
      A lot of people in the US (even ones with jobs) are unbanked so wouldn’t have even an ATM card.
      - rsynnott 9y ago
        Ah, right. Most employers here wouldn't be enthusiastic about paying people any way other than transfer to a bank/credit-union account these days.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > The US states requiring ID would be much less worrying if they would accept something that everyone has. Sure, but a key purpose of voter IDs laws, as proponents will sometimes admit in public (or in remarks that aren't intended to become public but do) is to tip the partisan scales in elections.
  - rdtsc 9y ago
    Is it possible to have national ID laws and not let states like Texas mess with those. Maybe that's not what you meant it seems a bit racist assuming that young black youth who want to vote are too incompetent to get an ID. But presumably poor white or asian ones are smarter and more resourceful. Having lived in poor neighborhoods with various races I'd say that not true based on my experience.
    - Pulcinella 9y ago
      You're the one bringing up incompetence. It's hard to get a driver's license or state ID when you have no car, work a full time job or two, the legislature closed your "local" DMV and the closest one is an hour away by bus.
      - rdtsc 9y ago
        I was trying to figure out what OP meant by the fact that black young won't be able to get IDs to vote. So presumption of incompetence was a guess there.
    - eru 9y ago
      > [...] it seems a bit racist assuming that young black youth who want to vote are too incompetent to get an ID. No need to assume, you can just check the statistics.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      Black people are more likely to be poor in the first place. (Not that a policy which selectively disenfranchised the poor would be acceptable if it were race neutral in effect.) And, it may or may not be Constitutionally possible to have a centralized national ID, but it's certainly not politically likely.
- crooked-v 9y ago
  The voter ID laws in question are written to allow forms of ID overwhelmingly possessed by Republican demographics (for example, gun licenses), while disallowing forms of ID overwhelmingly possessed by Democratic demographics (for example, college-issued ID cards). On top of this, these laws generally come with extra burdens when getting a generic state-issued ID card (for example, requiring more paperwork to be shown for it), or are passed at the same time that state DMV offices in Democratic-leaning areas have their operating hours cut.
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  > We have to be fully identified in Europe to vote Not true in the UK - last General Election, I walked into the Polling Station, handed over a polling card, confirmed the address WRITTEN ON THE CARD, and then voted as me. I could have picked up anyone's card from the block of flats I live in. Hell, I could probably have voted more than once if I'd been careful and timed multiple visits to avoid hitting the same checking people. And this is without even getting to the "you don't need a polling card to vote" bit.
- rsynnott 9y ago
  > We have to be fully identified in Europe to vote Depends on the country. The UK doesn't require ID (except in Northern Ireland). Ireland requires ID, but it can be practically anything (bank cards, social security cards, student ID, work ID, birth certs, some bus passes...) Most other countries in Europe have mandatory ID for all citizens anyway, so requiring it to vote in less onerous. In the US, there's no national ID card, and the states which require ID to vote typically require ID that not everyone has, and that lower-income people who live in cities are particularly unlikely to have.
- SeanLuke 9y ago
  Countries in Europe with voter ID also generally have mandatory IDs for all citizens and residents. But the United States does not have a mandatory ID. As a result, voter ID laws often turn on which form of ID you are permitted to provide. Many states with voter ID laws also have conveniently defined their set of acceptable IDs to be those which Republican voters are much more likely to have than Democrat voters, due to income and cultural disparities. Additionally some of these states offer some kind of universal ID for purposes of voting, but it will not be free or will be unusually difficult to obtain. This bias towards Republican voters is not by accident: multiple Republican-controlled legislatures have been quite open about their intent. It is one of several strategies being employed by Republicans to counter Democrat-leaning trends in voter demographics.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  The US has no national ID and states have no universal mandatory ID; there are existing biases in practical access to ID, and those have been unaddressed or exacerbated in schemes requiring ID for voting. A dramatic example would be Alabama adopting a voter ID requirement and then shortly after it became effective, closing the driver's license offices (where IDs are issued; driver's licenses are the main form of state ID and alternative non-driver IDs are generally issued by the same offices sice they use infrastructure originally built for driver's licenses) in 8 of 10 black-majority counties, including all those where that majority was 75%+ and including the five that voted most strongly Democratic in the preceding Presidential election. http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/09/alabama_sends_message_we_are_t.html http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/09/alabama_sends_me...
rdtsc 9y ago
> it's a mechanism for enabling voter ID laws, which prevent demographics that trend Democrat from voting. Which demographics are those?
- eli 9y ago
  According to a GAO report: young people, newly registered voters and African-Americans were disproportionately affected. https://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-14-634 https://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-14-634
  - rdtsc 9y ago
    However I see that --- Five of these 10 studies found that ID requirements had no statistically significant effect on turnout; in contrast 4 studies found decreases in turnout and 1 found an increase in turnout that were statistically significant. --- And all the states includes in the study seems to have disagreed with the methodology used: --- In comments on draft report excerpts the Kansas, Tennessee, and Arkansas Secretary of State Offices disagreed with GAO's criteria for selecting treatment and comparison states and Kansas and Tennessee questioned the reliability of one dataset used to assess turnout. --- To me it seems the answer is then "let's have community outreach to help every eligible over get an acceptable ID. Even subsidize free ID that can be used for voting" not "let's not have any IDs". Also coming from Europe and knowing that other countries with even more poverty and somehow manage to have an ID https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_(India) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_(India) and here despite all the insinuations and allegations of voter fraud and all the talk and energy spent on elections people are still against IDs.
    - eli 9y ago
      I picked the GAO report because they have a reputation for solid, unbiased work. But a quick google will find you many other citations. Quite a few people have come independently to the conclusion that it decreases turnout among populations that tend to vote Democrat. So that's a problem. Making ID cards free would probably help, but the other issue is that you're weighing the potential disenfranchisement of some marginalized people on one side against a phantom "voter fraud" boogeyman on the other side. In-person voter fraud basically never happens. There's no need to take any steps to stamp it out. There are so many better ways to spend that time and effort -- improving the vote-by-mail process, to pick an easy example.

Hyperborian 9y ago

He's being downvoted because there has never been any evidence for any significant amount of voter fraud whatsoever, though many have looked carefully for it. It's not just thought not to be a problem, but KNOWN not to be a problem. The idea that large amounts of illegals are voting fraudulently is pure right-wing propaganda made up to justify minority disenfranchisement efforts.