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Can someone remind me why boot camps were even a thing? What employer wouldn't be more impressed by a work sample? One possible plan: 1) Define success before

Can someone remind me why boot camps were even a thing? What employer wouldn't be more impressed by a work sample? One possible plan: 1) Define success before doing anything. Pick specific companies or a specialty you want to end up with first. 2a) Take the three months (or however long you can afford to invest) and work backwards. Figure out the most impressive and relevant project that can be reasonably be accomplished in that time. Make sure it's part of a hot trend because the time spent is probably the same regardless. 2b) In parallel, network and build the best quality contacts you can in your target area. Blog about any interesting observations made as the project progresses. Come right out and say in your posts that you are doing this in hopes of building skills, experience, and proof of your abilities, and say where you want to end up. 3) When its done, make it public online make sure it presents with visual appeal and with cogent explanations. Ask for feedback from your contacts, because that's your excuse to show off: "sure was challenging but I was able to go from zero to learning and building this in three months!". Ask for feedback because it's your chance to ask about openings and interviews. Ask for feedback because you really will need it. How does somebody new make a good project choice, when taking into account everything that would actually be impressive and help land a job would require years of experience to know? You can't without feedback or validation, so don't make the mistake of choosing solo. Just ask people who are in the target area to help you decide. Lots of people would be willing to give input and it's more chances for networking and follow up conversations.

gfodor 9y ago
I agree this is probably a 1000x more effective way to get hired at engineering firms that are seeking out top talent. I think a big reason coding bootcamps exist is because the mental model is that "pay money -> software job" -- it's an appealing idea, and doesn't necessarily mean the person is not going to put in the effort, but it's broken. I think it makes logical sense to someone that if they are going to pay lots of money for something, they think they are going to ultimately have an advantage over someone who took the path you mentioned, which is basically "free" other than opportunity cost. Surely, they must be getting something valuable for their money. Think of similar things like SAT test prep or other forms of job training that actually do legitimately teach trade skills that result in job placement that are hard to learn without experienced mentors, in person training, or expensive equipment. Unfortunately, the reality is the opposite in software engineering due to the nature of what we do and what makes people really good. You don't need much other than a computer, an internet connection, and focused time to build something noteworthy enough to cause potential employers to notice. The person above who built something from scratch on their own stands out head and shoulders above the sea of applicants from coding boot camps who have only done coursework.
- speedplane 9y ago
  Of course applicants "who built something from scratch" will stand out above bootcampers, and some can get into big tech firms with just a "computer," "internet connection" and "focus[]", but that's also a really tall order. There's nothing wrong with a "pay money -> software job" mentality, as long as the person is interested in the work, and puts in the effort. I know several people who came out of college with a humanities degrees only to become a poorly paid social media consultant or something similar. They didn't have the know-how to get started with software development on their own, but they enjoyed working with tech and were smart. They paid the $15k to the local bootcamp and within a few months got jobs increasing salaries from ~$30k to $80k (I know one who started well into six figures). We shouldn't lock people out just because they didn't get into coding at ten years old. Bootcamps often lead to solidly paying entry level coding jobs, a great lifestyle, along with the gratification of actually building something. Bootcamps serve a real need between self-study and a heavy-handed multi-year BS or MS. The driven MS or self-study guy or gal may get the better job, but bootcamps will get the candidate in the door quickly, and they can prove themselves while on the job.
  - WhitneyLand 9y ago
    You disagreed with me, but upvoting your comment because the counterpoint is compelling. It's easy to assume resources are the key point - are people with less time/money well served by these bootcamps? However, it makes sense that individual personality traits like motivation, ambition, and comfort level with uncertainty / cutting your own path could matter. As aside I've always felt successful STEM people receive unbalanced praise, always credit for some ethereal genius, not enough credit for maniacal drive, near clinical obsession with goals, gall. Does the general public realize that everyone from Einstein to Musk would have been greatly diminished without these qualities?
    - speedplane 9y ago
      Motivation, ambition, and comfort with uncertainty are definitely huge factors in a successful career. STEM people are experts in their field, and they have a mountain of seemingly magical knowledge, but respect for their "genius" ignores these more universal and often more desirable attributes. I friends with an incredibly intelligent patent lawyer who quit her job to become an FBI agent. I know another really smart guy who took a huge pay cut from his big-tech job to be a reporter for the Wall Street Journal. They didn't quit their technical fields because it was too hard, they could easily handle the STEM jobs when they were thrown at them. I look at them now and see an even greater level of professionalism than they had in their previous positions, and that comes with a greater respect. Many STEM jobs often get that self-respect, and probably also FBI agents ans WSJ reporters, wish the same could be said about many other positions.
trowawee 9y ago
"How does somebody new make a good project choice, when taking into account everything that would actually be impressive and help land a job would require years of experience to know? You can't without feedback or validation, so don't make the mistake of choosing solo. Just ask people who are in the target area to help you decide. Lots of people would be willing to give input and it's more chances for networking and follow up conversations." If only there were some sort of...educational institution...that could put you into contact with people in the target area and get you that kind of input, even if your personal network doesn't already include people in that profession. And that could help you figure out the most impressive and relevant project that could be reasonably accomplished in a short time. And that could provide instructors from the industry who could provide immediate, rapid feedback on your projects. And then, maybe that institution could connect you to a network of quality contacts composed of previous graduates and contacts from the instructors' time in the industry.
- Kluny 9y ago
  Omg... with that kind of intense training and focus... it would make sense to call it something like "boot camp"! Let's do it! Shut up and take my VC money.
- WhitneyLand 9y ago
  This is misleading. I hope if anyone here is in the process of choosing, they will consider that making these contacts would likely not be that difficult. Reason is, the type of contact determines the difficulty. Building a high quality sales contact list and network is extremely difficult, it can take decades. It's not uncommon for salespeople to be hired mostly on the basis of their rolodex. Conversely approaching someone to ask for career feedback is much easier. In general, people don't want to be sold something, but they don't mind helping out an up and coming person in in the field. It can even make them feel good they were respected enough to be asked.
forgottenpass 9y ago
Can someone remind me why boot camps were even a thing? There was a sense among some that webdev had advanced to a point where the skill of labor needed had declined to cogs that could be squirted out by a crash course. Ofc, there were always people willing to take the opposite perspective: that advances in the state of the art of development are continuously folded back into development processes. And there aren't roles that still require man-time after driving the skill barrier to zero because that becomes tooling given to the internal customer that specializes in a different part of the business. But payroll and management salivate at the cog idea. So we got to see the idea be tested in the marketplace and prove out what was fantasy and what wasn't.

gfodor 9y ago

I agree this is probably a 1000x more effective way to get hired at engineering firms that are seeking out top talent. I think a big reason coding bootcamps exist is because the mental model is that "pay money -> software job" -- it's an appealing idea, and doesn't necessarily mean the person is not going to put in the effort, but it's broken. I think it makes logical sense to someone that if they are going to pay lots of money for something, they think they are going to ultimately have an advantage over someone who took the path you mentioned, which is basically "free" other than opportunity cost. Surely, they must be getting something valuable for their money. Think of similar things like SAT test prep or other forms of job training that actually do legitimately teach trade skills that result in job placement that are hard to learn without experienced mentors, in person training, or expensive equipment. Unfortunately, the reality is the opposite in software engineering due to the nature of what we do and what makes people really good. You don't need much other than a computer, an internet connection, and focused time to build something noteworthy enough to cause potential employers to notice. The person above who built something from scratch on their own stands out head and shoulders above the sea of applicants from coding boot camps who have only done coursework.

speedplane 9y ago
Of course applicants "who built something from scratch" will stand out above bootcampers, and some can get into big tech firms with just a "computer," "internet connection" and "focus[]", but that's also a really tall order. There's nothing wrong with a "pay money -> software job" mentality, as long as the person is interested in the work, and puts in the effort. I know several people who came out of college with a humanities degrees only to become a poorly paid social media consultant or something similar. They didn't have the know-how to get started with software development on their own, but they enjoyed working with tech and were smart. They paid the $15k to the local bootcamp and within a few months got jobs increasing salaries from ~$30k to $80k (I know one who started well into six figures). We shouldn't lock people out just because they didn't get into coding at ten years old. Bootcamps often lead to solidly paying entry level coding jobs, a great lifestyle, along with the gratification of actually building something. Bootcamps serve a real need between self-study and a heavy-handed multi-year BS or MS. The driven MS or self-study guy or gal may get the better job, but bootcamps will get the candidate in the door quickly, and they can prove themselves while on the job.
- WhitneyLand 9y ago
  You disagreed with me, but upvoting your comment because the counterpoint is compelling. It's easy to assume resources are the key point - are people with less time/money well served by these bootcamps? However, it makes sense that individual personality traits like motivation, ambition, and comfort level with uncertainty / cutting your own path could matter. As aside I've always felt successful STEM people receive unbalanced praise, always credit for some ethereal genius, not enough credit for maniacal drive, near clinical obsession with goals, gall. Does the general public realize that everyone from Einstein to Musk would have been greatly diminished without these qualities?
  - speedplane 9y ago
    Motivation, ambition, and comfort with uncertainty are definitely huge factors in a successful career. STEM people are experts in their field, and they have a mountain of seemingly magical knowledge, but respect for their "genius" ignores these more universal and often more desirable attributes. I friends with an incredibly intelligent patent lawyer who quit her job to become an FBI agent. I know another really smart guy who took a huge pay cut from his big-tech job to be a reporter for the Wall Street Journal. They didn't quit their technical fields because it was too hard, they could easily handle the STEM jobs when they were thrown at them. I look at them now and see an even greater level of professionalism than they had in their previous positions, and that comes with a greater respect. Many STEM jobs often get that self-respect, and probably also FBI agents ans WSJ reporters, wish the same could be said about many other positions.

trowawee 9y ago

"How does somebody new make a good project choice, when taking into account everything that would actually be impressive and help land a job would require years of experience to know? You can't without feedback or validation, so don't make the mistake of choosing solo. Just ask people who are in the target area to help you decide. Lots of people would be willing to give input and it's more chances for networking and follow up conversations." If only there were some sort of...educational institution...that could put you into contact with people in the target area and get you that kind of input, even if your personal network doesn't already include people in that profession. And that could help you figure out the most impressive and relevant project that could be reasonably accomplished in a short time. And that could provide instructors from the industry who could provide immediate, rapid feedback on your projects. And then, maybe that institution could connect you to a network of quality contacts composed of previous graduates and contacts from the instructors' time in the industry.

Kluny 9y ago
Omg... with that kind of intense training and focus... it would make sense to call it something like "boot camp"! Let's do it! Shut up and take my VC money.
WhitneyLand 9y ago
This is misleading. I hope if anyone here is in the process of choosing, they will consider that making these contacts would likely not be that difficult. Reason is, the type of contact determines the difficulty. Building a high quality sales contact list and network is extremely difficult, it can take decades. It's not uncommon for salespeople to be hired mostly on the basis of their rolodex. Conversely approaching someone to ask for career feedback is much easier. In general, people don't want to be sold something, but they don't mind helping out an up and coming person in in the field. It can even make them feel good they were respected enough to be asked.

forgottenpass 9y ago

Can someone remind me why boot camps were even a thing? There was a sense among some that webdev had advanced to a point where the skill of labor needed had declined to cogs that could be squirted out by a crash course. Ofc, there were always people willing to take the opposite perspective: that advances in the state of the art of development are continuously folded back into development processes. And there aren't roles that still require man-time after driving the skill barrier to zero because that becomes tooling given to the internal customer that specializes in a different part of the business. But payroll and management salivate at the cog idea. So we got to see the idea be tested in the marketplace and prove out what was fantasy and what wasn't.