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>> Eastern Europe benefited immensely by European manufacturers relocating there... You're making it sound like these companies outsourced manufacturing to the

>> Eastern Europe benefited immensely by European manufacturers relocating there... You're making it sound like these companies outsourced manufacturing to these lower cost countries against their will/interest which is obv not the case. >> sabotaging "solidarity" policies like refugee resettlement out of pure racism and egoism. "egoism" on a state scale basically means protecting the interests of it's citizens. isn't that what the state is supposed to be doing in the first place? just because other countries in the EU are acting in the irrational (and somewhat suicidal manner) when it comes to these things - this doesn't mean everyone has to follow suit.

toyg 9y ago
> like these companies outsourced manufacturing to these lower cost countries against their will/interest No, but they did it against the interests of their existing Western workers; and such workers in many cases accepted that as a price to pay for long-term peace and prosperity on the continent. Would I prefer a world where Western workers are better off but we still have a Cold War with bombs going off here and there, the constant threat of revolutions or dictatorships and so on? No, of course not. In this sense, the Ukrainian experience is a good example of what could have been for a lot of countries without the EU. > protecting the interests of it's citizens. isn't that what the state is supposed to be doing There are many ways of protecting the interests of its citizens; one of them is helping people in need in other countries, in order to foster peace and prosperity in the long run. The US turning a blind eye towards the plight of Jewish refugees in the 1930s would have "protected" the interest of its citizens already in the US, but it would have been bad in the long run. The same for Italians moving there around the same time. Helping poor nations getting better, by accepting migrants (who will send back a lot of the money they earn, and reduce demographic pressure), is a good move in the long run, or even in the short run in most cases (since they pay for retirement of older EU citizens, which would otherwise be unsustainable in most cases because of declining demographics). > irrational (and somewhat suicidal manner) Some things look irrational in the short term but eventually make sense. A lot of our current problems are due to humanity completely losing sight of anything that is not the next fiscal quarter.
- ChemicalWarfare 9y ago
  don't know how things are where you're at, but around here if a politician was insisting on importing ppl with a track record similar to that of the latest waves of ME migrants in the EU - they won't last anywhere but in a couple of ultra-liberal enclaves.
  - toyg 9y ago
    According to the press of the time, Jews and Italians also had a pretty infamous "track record". Just the other day was the anniversary of the Sacco and Vanzetti affair... Also, I'm sure Alan Kurdi had a terrible, terrible "track record".
    - ChemicalWarfare 9y ago
      >> According to the press of the time.. you saying all these stabbings, shootings, driving of vehicles into the crowd, gang rapes etc etc are made up by the press? speaking of Sacco and Vanzetti - the government didn't do it's job and allowed violent anarchists into the country. so yes, shouldn't have let them in.
      - toyg 9y ago
        > you saying all these stabbings, shootings, driving of vehicles into the crowd, gang rapes etc etc are made up by the press? A lot of them are, especially these days when you can have nameless blogs pushing crap into facebook. Statistics are bent or misread, tales exaggerated, and then the correction is printed two weeks later on page 31 on a single line in size 7. The actual statistical risk of immigrants committing crimes is much lower than average - don't take it from me, ask people who study this stuff: https://www.cato.org/blog/immigration-crime-what-research-says https://www.cato.org/blog/immigration-crime-what-research-sa... Of course actual terror attacks are another story, but those would likely happen anyway - you only need a tourist visa to do anything from 9/11 hijacks to renting a van. And going back to Sacco and Vanzetti, if you think the contribution the Italian-American community made to the US over 150 years are not worth an (alleged) murder or two, I honestly think the only way of life that would satisfy you is closer to an Amish lifestyle than anything vaguely modern.

toyg 9y ago

> like these companies outsourced manufacturing to these lower cost countries against their will/interest No, but they did it against the interests of their existing Western workers; and such workers in many cases accepted that as a price to pay for long-term peace and prosperity on the continent. Would I prefer a world where Western workers are better off but we still have a Cold War with bombs going off here and there, the constant threat of revolutions or dictatorships and so on? No, of course not. In this sense, the Ukrainian experience is a good example of what could have been for a lot of countries without the EU. > protecting the interests of it's citizens. isn't that what the state is supposed to be doing There are many ways of protecting the interests of its citizens; one of them is helping people in need in other countries, in order to foster peace and prosperity in the long run. The US turning a blind eye towards the plight of Jewish refugees in the 1930s would have "protected" the interest of its citizens already in the US, but it would have been bad in the long run. The same for Italians moving there around the same time. Helping poor nations getting better, by accepting migrants (who will send back a lot of the money they earn, and reduce demographic pressure), is a good move in the long run, or even in the short run in most cases (since they pay for retirement of older EU citizens, which would otherwise be unsustainable in most cases because of declining demographics). > irrational (and somewhat suicidal manner) Some things look irrational in the short term but eventually make sense. A lot of our current problems are due to humanity completely losing sight of anything that is not the next fiscal quarter.

ChemicalWarfare 9y ago
don't know how things are where you're at, but around here if a politician was insisting on importing ppl with a track record similar to that of the latest waves of ME migrants in the EU - they won't last anywhere but in a couple of ultra-liberal enclaves.
- toyg 9y ago
  According to the press of the time, Jews and Italians also had a pretty infamous "track record". Just the other day was the anniversary of the Sacco and Vanzetti affair... Also, I'm sure Alan Kurdi had a terrible, terrible "track record".
  - ChemicalWarfare 9y ago
    >> According to the press of the time.. you saying all these stabbings, shootings, driving of vehicles into the crowd, gang rapes etc etc are made up by the press? speaking of Sacco and Vanzetti - the government didn't do it's job and allowed violent anarchists into the country. so yes, shouldn't have let them in.
    - toyg 9y ago
      > you saying all these stabbings, shootings, driving of vehicles into the crowd, gang rapes etc etc are made up by the press? A lot of them are, especially these days when you can have nameless blogs pushing crap into facebook. Statistics are bent or misread, tales exaggerated, and then the correction is printed two weeks later on page 31 on a single line in size 7. The actual statistical risk of immigrants committing crimes is much lower than average - don't take it from me, ask people who study this stuff: https://www.cato.org/blog/immigration-crime-what-research-says https://www.cato.org/blog/immigration-crime-what-research-sa... Of course actual terror attacks are another story, but those would likely happen anyway - you only need a tourist visa to do anything from 9/11 hijacks to renting a van. And going back to Sacco and Vanzetti, if you think the contribution the Italian-American community made to the US over 150 years are not worth an (alleged) murder or two, I honestly think the only way of life that would satisfy you is closer to an Amish lifestyle than anything vaguely modern.