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When freedom is defined as freedom within the capitalist mode of production for bourgeois interests to collude, I suppose you're right. He also said that the st

When freedom is defined as freedom within the capitalist mode of production for bourgeois interests to collude, I suppose you're right. He also said that the state, as it is instituted for the protection of property, is instituted as a device used in benefit of the rich for the detriment of the poor. I find Marx's critique of classical political economy to be more valuable, and the thinking it inspired. The quality of the freedom offered by the social anarchists (Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin and Bookchin) I also think is much higher than Smith's.

KekDemaga 9y ago
>The quality of the freedom offered by the social anarchists (Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin and Bookchin) I also think is much higher than Smith's. In practice or on paper?
- etplayer 9y ago
  Both, I would argue. The application of their ideas in Catalonia was respected by Orwell when he stayed there (he even wrote a book about it, Homage to Catalonia). The current situation in Syria has spawned a man inspired by Bookchin's anarchism to start Rojava, which is a secular and multi-ethnic society in the region, fighting ISIS and against the Turkish forces which want to eliminate them. You can read about anarchists during the Russian revolution, Kronstadt, Makhno, and the Italian factory councils here, whuch is a great read: http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/daniel-guerin-anarchism-from-theory-to-practice http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/daniel-guerin-anarchi...
  - KekDemaga 9y ago
    Not places I'd want to live personally, how are you enjoying Syria?
    - etplayer 9y ago
      That's not an argument against anarchism. I also wouldn't want to live in many other places, nor would I want to live there. The point is that it is a place Syrians want to live, as in, it is significantly better than theocratic regimes in the region, and much fairer to all. I really don't know how you can consider what you said to be against anarchism.
      - KekDemaga 9y ago
        My point is I typically judge governments by their ability to create a place where people would like to live and I have to say Syria is pretty low on most peoples lists.
        etplayer 9y ago
        But Syria wouldn't be somewhere you want to live regardless of what organisation the anarchists st up there. That's because of the climate and the war in the region, both of which are out of the control of Rojava. It just doesn't make sense to judge by that metric. What more do you expect Rojava or any government of any ideology in the region to do, other than to fight ISIS?
CryptoPunk 9y ago
I find the social-anarchist take on freedom to be more skewed by ideology, while I see Smith's take to be more natural and conventional. Of course the social anarchist would disagree that they're any more ideological than the classical liberal :) I don't have a high regard for social anarchy and its thinkers, and hold the ideology responsible for much of the unnecessary suffering of the 20th and 21st (modern Cuba, North Korea and Venezuela) century. I also think it is the culprit for the stagnation seen in the West.
- etplayer 9y ago
  >responsible for much of the unnecessary suffering of the 20th and 21st (modern Cuba, North Korea and Venezuela) Neither Cuba, North Korea nor Venezuela have adopted anarchist theory or praxis. At best, they have claimed to adopt regional variants of Marxism-Leninism and even toward that goal they have failed as is currently visible by their capitalist economies. >I also think it is the culprit for the stagnation seen in the West. How is social anarchism the culprit for the perceived "stagnation" in Western countries? And stagnation of what, exactly?
  - CryptoPunk 9y ago
    Every government that followed Karl Marx and succeeded ended up killing scores of innocent people, including the Anarchists in Catalonia
    - etplayer 9y ago
      You can't really blame the man or his ideology, though. He didn't specify many of the things which were decided by those governments, and those governments to my knowledge all followed Marxism-Leninism anyway, which has a different revolutionary praxis. And as I said, they weren't even true to that.
      - CryptoPunk 9y ago
        I can blame the anti-economic demagogic ideology of Marxism for producing an unworkable economic system.

KekDemaga 9y ago

>The quality of the freedom offered by the social anarchists (Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin and Bookchin) I also think is much higher than Smith's. In practice or on paper?

etplayer 9y ago
Both, I would argue. The application of their ideas in Catalonia was respected by Orwell when he stayed there (he even wrote a book about it, Homage to Catalonia). The current situation in Syria has spawned a man inspired by Bookchin's anarchism to start Rojava, which is a secular and multi-ethnic society in the region, fighting ISIS and against the Turkish forces which want to eliminate them. You can read about anarchists during the Russian revolution, Kronstadt, Makhno, and the Italian factory councils here, whuch is a great read: http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/daniel-guerin-anarchism-from-theory-to-practice http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/daniel-guerin-anarchi...
- KekDemaga 9y ago
  Not places I'd want to live personally, how are you enjoying Syria?
  - etplayer 9y ago
    That's not an argument against anarchism. I also wouldn't want to live in many other places, nor would I want to live there. The point is that it is a place Syrians want to live, as in, it is significantly better than theocratic regimes in the region, and much fairer to all. I really don't know how you can consider what you said to be against anarchism.
    - KekDemaga 9y ago
      My point is I typically judge governments by their ability to create a place where people would like to live and I have to say Syria is pretty low on most peoples lists.
      - etplayer 9y ago
        But Syria wouldn't be somewhere you want to live regardless of what organisation the anarchists st up there. That's because of the climate and the war in the region, both of which are out of the control of Rojava. It just doesn't make sense to judge by that metric. What more do you expect Rojava or any government of any ideology in the region to do, other than to fight ISIS?

CryptoPunk 9y ago

I find the social-anarchist take on freedom to be more skewed by ideology, while I see Smith's take to be more natural and conventional. Of course the social anarchist would disagree that they're any more ideological than the classical liberal :) I don't have a high regard for social anarchy and its thinkers, and hold the ideology responsible for much of the unnecessary suffering of the 20th and 21st (modern Cuba, North Korea and Venezuela) century. I also think it is the culprit for the stagnation seen in the West.

etplayer 9y ago
>responsible for much of the unnecessary suffering of the 20th and 21st (modern Cuba, North Korea and Venezuela) Neither Cuba, North Korea nor Venezuela have adopted anarchist theory or praxis. At best, they have claimed to adopt regional variants of Marxism-Leninism and even toward that goal they have failed as is currently visible by their capitalist economies. >I also think it is the culprit for the stagnation seen in the West. How is social anarchism the culprit for the perceived "stagnation" in Western countries? And stagnation of what, exactly?
- CryptoPunk 9y ago
  Every government that followed Karl Marx and succeeded ended up killing scores of innocent people, including the Anarchists in Catalonia
  - etplayer 9y ago
    You can't really blame the man or his ideology, though. He didn't specify many of the things which were decided by those governments, and those governments to my knowledge all followed Marxism-Leninism anyway, which has a different revolutionary praxis. And as I said, they weren't even true to that.
    - CryptoPunk 9y ago
      I can blame the anti-economic demagogic ideology of Marxism for producing an unworkable economic system.