5 ms·

I am sort of troubled by the crowdfund page. It is obviously designed to look like a kickstarter page, but it is in fact not a kickstarter. Say what you will ab

by pfooti 9y ago

I am sort of troubled by the crowdfund page. It is obviously designed to look like a kickstarter page, but it is in fact not a kickstarter. Say what you will about kickstarter, but I have questions. Will the campaign charge you even if it doesn't reach its goal? There is no indication one way or the other on this page. What are the refund / delivery guarantee policies here? KS ones are potentially controversial, but they at least are written down. Are those pictures of the phone actual pictures or renders / mockups? KS has explicit policies about that, but this context makes that unclear.

icebraining 9y ago
Will the campaign charge you even if it doesn't reach its goal? There is no indication one way or the other on this page. Just scroll down.. "What if you don’t reach the funding target? It will show that there is not enough interest in producing a device that focuses on security, privacy, and digital rights, which will be a tremendous social disappointment. If we don’t reach our target then all contributions will be fully refunded."
- cyberpunk0 9y ago
  It might also just mean enough people who do care did not see it. This is the first time I'm hearing about any of these things
  - avaer 9y ago
    Or it could mean there is plenty of interest, but people don't agree this project is the right way to fund it. That answer rubs me the wrong way.
- pfooti 9y ago
  Hmm, interesting. I will admit I missed that (as it was halfway through the FAQ, and I've got to say: passive aggressive). That said, they make it sound like you get charged up front when you back, and will get a refund if it fails to fully fund. This is a pretty significant departure from traditional crowdfund platforms (ks, igg) where you're charged when the campaign ends, only if it succeeds. Adding an extra two months of lockup to your money and "we promise we'll refund" just feels ... sketchy. I mean: I like what the purism people are doing, don't get me wrong. I'm a fan of their librem stuff, ever since the crowdsupply days. But like: is there a reason they're not doing this on crowdsupply? Again, it just feels like a dark pattern to use these visual cues to suggest kickstarter while not adhering to standard crowdfund policy.
  - throwaway613834 9y ago
    I feel like on every Kickstarter I've tried, I've gotten charged the first moment. Are you sure this is not the case?
    - icebraining 9y ago
      No, they may ask for an authorization of funds, but they don't actually charge unless the project hits its goal: https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backer+questions#faq_41760 https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backer+questions#faq_41... (Scroll a bit up, it seems their fixed header hides the question when directly linked)
      - throwaway613834 9y ago
        Thanks! I guess I must have never noticed the charges when the campaigns have ended so I'd always assumed it was in the beginning. That's good to know!
    - pfooti 9y ago
      that's never happened to me - I know this because I've had several times when my credit card info changed between pledge and completion, and I had to update my cc info because the card was rejected at completion. they confirm payment when you back, but the charge doesn't happen until successful completion, at least on KS.
      - throwaway613834 9y ago
        Oh I see, so do they not even put a temporary hold? Otherwise doesn't that mean they might not be able to get a significant portion of their pledged funding (e.g. if people don't bother to update their cards)?
        pfooti 9y ago
        that is correct - some percentage of every KS campaign fails to collect due to rejected CC charges / chargebacks etc. According to this older (2015) article [0], in 2014 KS had $529 MM in pledges, but only collected $444 MM. So: that's like 83% successful charges? Then again, that might have included failed campaigns (since those would be pledges that didn't collect as well). 0: https://techcrunch.com/2015/01/06/kickstarter-2014-numbers/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/01/06/kickstarter-2014-numbers/

by pfooti 9y ago

icebraining 9y ago

Will the campaign charge you even if it doesn't reach its goal? There is no indication one way or the other on this page. Just scroll down.. "What if you don’t reach the funding target? It will show that there is not enough interest in producing a device that focuses on security, privacy, and digital rights, which will be a tremendous social disappointment. If we don’t reach our target then all contributions will be fully refunded."

cyberpunk0 9y ago
It might also just mean enough people who do care did not see it. This is the first time I'm hearing about any of these things
- avaer 9y ago
  Or it could mean there is plenty of interest, but people don't agree this project is the right way to fund it. That answer rubs me the wrong way.
pfooti 9y ago
Hmm, interesting. I will admit I missed that (as it was halfway through the FAQ, and I've got to say: passive aggressive). That said, they make it sound like you get charged up front when you back, and will get a refund if it fails to fully fund. This is a pretty significant departure from traditional crowdfund platforms (ks, igg) where you're charged when the campaign ends, only if it succeeds. Adding an extra two months of lockup to your money and "we promise we'll refund" just feels ... sketchy. I mean: I like what the purism people are doing, don't get me wrong. I'm a fan of their librem stuff, ever since the crowdsupply days. But like: is there a reason they're not doing this on crowdsupply? Again, it just feels like a dark pattern to use these visual cues to suggest kickstarter while not adhering to standard crowdfund policy.
- throwaway613834 9y ago
  I feel like on every Kickstarter I've tried, I've gotten charged the first moment. Are you sure this is not the case?
  - icebraining 9y ago
    No, they may ask for an authorization of funds, but they don't actually charge unless the project hits its goal: https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backer+questions#faq_41760 https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backer+questions#faq_41... (Scroll a bit up, it seems their fixed header hides the question when directly linked)
    - throwaway613834 9y ago
      Thanks! I guess I must have never noticed the charges when the campaigns have ended so I'd always assumed it was in the beginning. That's good to know!
  - pfooti 9y ago
    that's never happened to me - I know this because I've had several times when my credit card info changed between pledge and completion, and I had to update my cc info because the card was rejected at completion. they confirm payment when you back, but the charge doesn't happen until successful completion, at least on KS.
    - throwaway613834 9y ago
      Oh I see, so do they not even put a temporary hold? Otherwise doesn't that mean they might not be able to get a significant portion of their pledged funding (e.g. if people don't bother to update their cards)?
      - pfooti 9y ago
        that is correct - some percentage of every KS campaign fails to collect due to rejected CC charges / chargebacks etc. According to this older (2015) article [0], in 2014 KS had $529 MM in pledges, but only collected $444 MM. So: that's like 83% successful charges? Then again, that might have included failed campaigns (since those would be pledges that didn't collect as well). 0: https://techcrunch.com/2015/01/06/kickstarter-2014-numbers/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/01/06/kickstarter-2014-numbers/