5 ms·

What other way? The one where some people have enormous structural disadvantages due to decades or more of discrimination? We agree it doesn't work, but many pe

What other way? The one where some people have enormous structural disadvantages due to decades or more of discrimination? We agree it doesn't work, but many people get angry and defensive when we try and create systems that are fair enough to take this into account, like affirmative action policies.

Danihan 9y ago
Because you can't fight bias with more bias, it's hypocritical.
- evanlivingston 9y ago
  You understand the problem with color-blindness, yes?
  - Danihan 9y ago
    Blind-hiring worked to remove the gender gap in orchestras. Why wouldn't it be good to use in college admissions? http://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impact... http://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impact....
    - adjkant 9y ago
      Because the input of applicants is the original problem. Affirmative action is intended to select more from the limited applicants, which in the end is a small effect in comparison to getting more black/hispanic students who are able to go college at all. Solving that takes a lot more, and affirmative action is attempting to stopgap for that.
    - evanlivingston 9y ago
      Of The cuff; a whole slew of reasons. Entry into an orchestra isn't something that is cost prohibitive for an economic class of individuals. Applicants to orchestras likely enjoy a certain level of affluence given how demanding the required practice is for performers. Musical performers enjoy slightly less systematic discrimination throughout their careers and technkal musical ability is something that is largely self-taught meaning that the applicants to orchestras are more likely to share similar levels of abilities at the stage of auditioning for an orchestra whereas college applicants are more likely to express difference at the time of application due to systematic discrimination throughout their educational trajectory. Playing in an orchestra doesn't share the same grave weight of attending college in careerist society where college is increasingly necessary. The demand is higher for college, and the supply can reflect that. Orchestras arnt a part of a massive industry tied to sports, science, defense, state subsidies etc...
      - Danihan 9y ago
        None of those are reasons not to try it. It worked well on a smaller scale and hasn't been tried on any sort of larger scale. Maybe I just hold the value of having an objectively fair playing field higher than some others here. I personally love the idea of bling hiring in orchestras, in technology jobs, and in college admissions. People's upbringings are never going to be fair. Nor is their potential, if we're being honest. But moving the admissions goalposts all over trying to make everything more "diverse," when that's really just a racist codeword for "skin color," is not a valid answer to me. This is simplistic, but a weighted average of standardized test scores + being in a top percentage of your graduating class (regardless of school quality) is already going to give you a lot of genuine diversity.
        jacalata 9y ago
        > Maybe I just hold the value of having an objectively fair playing field higher than some others here. ...People's upbringings are never going to be fair. Maybe you value it less than others, and that's why you're willing to give up on a whole section of the playing field so easily?
        Danihan 9y ago
        It takes wisdom to know what things you can fix and what things you cannot.
        jacalata 9y ago
        If you don't think a fair playing field is achievable then why pretend you care more and are working harder to achieve it than others, instead of admitting that you're focusing your energy elsewhere?
        Danihan 9y ago
        A fair starting point is not achievable without everyone being clones, and very likely not even then. I care more about equal opportunity than others, because equal opportunity means truly treating people fairly and in a standardized way at a policy level, rather than discriminating based on skin color, gender or ethnicity.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- jacalata 9y ago
  No, it isn't. It would be hypocritical to say "slavery is bad and it was done to black people so we should make white people slaves now". It is not hypocritical to say "black people were mistreated because of their race and this has disadvantaged them as a group, here are some ways to make up for that previous treatment". If one kid gets singled out at school to be beaten up, it is not hypocritical to single him out for medical treatment afterwards. You are not giving him medical treatment because he is a nerd/funny looking/unlucky,you are reacting to the situation he is in now because of past unfairness.
  - Danihan 9y ago
    reparations are not the same as acute care.
    - jacalata 9y ago
      If the analogy wasn't somehow different from the original case it wouldn't be an analogy, would it.

Danihan 9y ago

Because you can't fight bias with more bias, it's hypocritical.

evanlivingston 9y ago
You understand the problem with color-blindness, yes?
- Danihan 9y ago
  Blind-hiring worked to remove the gender gap in orchestras. Why wouldn't it be good to use in college admissions? http://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impact... http://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impact....
  - adjkant 9y ago
    Because the input of applicants is the original problem. Affirmative action is intended to select more from the limited applicants, which in the end is a small effect in comparison to getting more black/hispanic students who are able to go college at all. Solving that takes a lot more, and affirmative action is attempting to stopgap for that.
  - evanlivingston 9y ago
    Of The cuff; a whole slew of reasons. Entry into an orchestra isn't something that is cost prohibitive for an economic class of individuals. Applicants to orchestras likely enjoy a certain level of affluence given how demanding the required practice is for performers. Musical performers enjoy slightly less systematic discrimination throughout their careers and technkal musical ability is something that is largely self-taught meaning that the applicants to orchestras are more likely to share similar levels of abilities at the stage of auditioning for an orchestra whereas college applicants are more likely to express difference at the time of application due to systematic discrimination throughout their educational trajectory. Playing in an orchestra doesn't share the same grave weight of attending college in careerist society where college is increasingly necessary. The demand is higher for college, and the supply can reflect that. Orchestras arnt a part of a massive industry tied to sports, science, defense, state subsidies etc...
    - Danihan 9y ago
      None of those are reasons not to try it. It worked well on a smaller scale and hasn't been tried on any sort of larger scale. Maybe I just hold the value of having an objectively fair playing field higher than some others here. I personally love the idea of bling hiring in orchestras, in technology jobs, and in college admissions. People's upbringings are never going to be fair. Nor is their potential, if we're being honest. But moving the admissions goalposts all over trying to make everything more "diverse," when that's really just a racist codeword for "skin color," is not a valid answer to me. This is simplistic, but a weighted average of standardized test scores + being in a top percentage of your graduating class (regardless of school quality) is already going to give you a lot of genuine diversity.
      - jacalata 9y ago
        > Maybe I just hold the value of having an objectively fair playing field higher than some others here. ...People's upbringings are never going to be fair. Maybe you value it less than others, and that's why you're willing to give up on a whole section of the playing field so easily?
        Danihan 9y ago
        It takes wisdom to know what things you can fix and what things you cannot.
        jacalata 9y ago
        If you don't think a fair playing field is achievable then why pretend you care more and are working harder to achieve it than others, instead of admitting that you're focusing your energy elsewhere?
        Danihan 9y ago
        A fair starting point is not achievable without everyone being clones, and very likely not even then. I care more about equal opportunity than others, because equal opportunity means truly treating people fairly and in a standardized way at a policy level, rather than discriminating based on skin color, gender or ethnicity.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jacalata 9y ago
No, it isn't. It would be hypocritical to say "slavery is bad and it was done to black people so we should make white people slaves now". It is not hypocritical to say "black people were mistreated because of their race and this has disadvantaged them as a group, here are some ways to make up for that previous treatment". If one kid gets singled out at school to be beaten up, it is not hypocritical to single him out for medical treatment afterwards. You are not giving him medical treatment because he is a nerd/funny looking/unlucky,you are reacting to the situation he is in now because of past unfairness.
- Danihan 9y ago
  reparations are not the same as acute care.
  - jacalata 9y ago
    If the analogy wasn't somehow different from the original case it wouldn't be an analogy, would it.