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Cryptocurrencies are used for financial speculation, fraud and illegal trade. With only tiny fractions of the cryptocurrency-using fraction of society using the

Cryptocurrencies are used for financial speculation, fraud and illegal trade. With only tiny fractions of the cryptocurrency-using fraction of society using them for other purposes. I would not call that nonsense the embrace of a generation.

127 9y ago
That's an interesting claim that I'd like to see proven.
kowdermeister 9y ago
* are used for financial speculation, fraud and illegal trade. * gold, diamond, stocks, paper money, etc. would also fit the bill
- gnaritas 9y ago
  This is a disingenuous comment, all of those other things are primarily used for something else; so you either miss the point he's making or you're being unnecessarily pedantic.
  - mrb 9y ago
    Making an overly generalizing statement of a revolutionary technology based on how some people use them in just the first few years they were invented ("cryptocurrencies are used for bad things") is disingenuous and disregards their future potential.
    - gnaritas 9y ago
      No, it's a factual statement of where the tech currently stands. You're confusing your hope of what it might become with what it currently is.
      - mrb 9y ago
        "factual" As I said elsewhere in this thread: you have provided no data to back up your "facts". I am annoyed at people who constantly claim to know how are cryptocurrencies used, but... it's just what they think and have no data to show it.
        gnaritas 9y ago
        Well hey, I'm annoyed by people who think their delusions of what something could be is the same thing as reality. I'm a huge fan of crypto, but the OP is correct about what it currently is and who's mostly using it. Demanding evidence of people's experience with things is just a cheap cop out to avoid discussion. Anyone involved in the space knows the value is largely speculation driven at this point and if you need that proven to you, then you don't know the tech or the community well enough to be conversing about it.
        mrb 9y ago
        "Anyone involved in the space knows the value is largely speculation" I agree value appears to be driven a lot by speculation, but you are changing subject. We were talking about usage. It's pretty obvious from payment processors, from people in the industry (have you ever attended a Bitcoin conference and talked to users? I have), from usage metrics (increasing tx rate, which is normally not related to speculators, as buying and leaving coins on exchange doesn't create a tx), and from other sources, that usage of cryptos is growing. So, no, you can't say you "just know" cryptocurrencies aren't used by anyone. PS: I am a crypto dev, wrote miners, founded TAV (mining ASIC integrator), and have been in the Bitcoin industry for 7 years. I know a thing or two.
        gnaritas 9y ago
        I agree usage is growing, but that is not the topic. Most coins are moving not because of usage but because of speculation, people are buying largely because of speculation, trading because of speculation, and selling because of speculation; the majority of transaction volume is not coming from using Bitcoin as a currency to buy goods and services, it's from speculators entering the market due to the price rise.
- gefh 9y ago
  And I would put gold and diamonds in the same bin as cryptocurrencies - a waste of resources that achieves very little good, beyond their industrial uses. Stocks are headed that way. The original use of providing capital to productive enterprise has waned. Paper money is still overwhelmingly used to facilitate legitimate trade, though obviously on a decline.
csomar 9y ago
So? They are being used. The market cap of cryptocurrencies is over $100b which is significant money; and the exchange of these currencies is liquid as of date.
- sharemywin 9y ago
  Imagine how much they'll be worth when they do something useful...;)
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- gnaritas 9y ago
  It's tiny, no more than the size of a single company in the real market. Crypto is cool, no need to exaggerate its size as more relevant than it really is, right it it's a tiny drop in a huge ocean of capital, it is not significant. The market cap of just the top 500 companies is $17.4 trillion.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    This comment sort of annihilates itself. If the market cap of the top 500 companies is 17.4 trillion then that averages out to 17400/500 which is a bit under 35 billion each. Which makes bitcoin as large or larger than a good chunk of those F500 companies. I'm sure you could have picked a better example to illustrate just how tiny bitcoin is.
    - gnaritas 9y ago
      Uh, bitcoin is the size of a single company, that's a pretty good example of how small it is. It's 1/6th the size of Google, that's not a world changing amount of capital.
      - jacquesm 9y ago
        Again, that's incredible to me. Just think about it: something that was launched less than a decade ago in 'fire and forget' mode is right up there with one of the tech giants. It's not quite world changing but let's wait until it is over until we call that one.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
stale2002 9y ago
Crytocurrencies provide people with the ability to execute censorship resistant transactions. Who else would want to send censorship resistant transactions other than people who are at risk of being censored? The modern era is still relatively free of censorship, and thus the people using cryto are pretty far on the shady end of the spectrum. But trend toward censorship in the modern era, is worrisome. Perhaps a whole lot more people are going to have to protect themselves against censorship in the future. And by censorship, I mean censorship done by ANYONE, including both the government, AND ultra powerful corporations that may as well be the government.
- mrb 9y ago
  "The modern era is still relatively free of censorship" Don't take this as an insult but what an ignorant comment... Financial, political & journalistic censorship (all inter-related) is rampant. Start by reading: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    And follow up with 'Manufacturing Consent'.
  - stale2002 9y ago
    I don't disagree that these things are bad. But all things are relative. Perhaps I just have a bleaker imagination of how bad things COULD be. I worry that as bad as things are today, we will look back on this era as a comparative golden age of freedom.
mrb 9y ago
"tiny fractions" Citation needed. You have no data to back up your claims. In my circles, cryptos seem to be primarily used either for person-to-person transactions (housing rent, beer money, small loans between friends) or--interestingly--B2B payments (US company paying their Chinese suppliers; Bitcoin excels at fast international payments.)
- panopticon 9y ago
  > cryptos seem to be primarily used either for person-to-person transactions (housing rent, beer money, small loans between friends) I would be pretty miffed if someone as paying me their share of rent in crypto. No merchant I interact with accepts them, so it would be more than a hassle to convert into USD (fees, rapid valuation changes, etc).
  - hossbeast 9y ago
    But you might do it anyway, if it's enough of a value to your customers (like accepting a credit card payment)
- mynewtb 9y ago
  If OP would put substance to their claim, I might be willing to look into that. It's nice that cryptocurrency is used as intermediate in your circles but surely you don't seriously disagree with my 'tiny fractions' of society being like that. Can you give details about those B2B payments?
  - mrb 9y ago
    B2B: https://blog.bitpay.com/understanding-bitcoins-growth-in-2015/ https://blog.bitpay.com/understanding-bitcoins-growth-in-201...
    - mynewtb 9y ago
      Recently, an international client was hosting a website surrounding a global sporting event. At a critical moment, their servers came under a DDoS attack. They needed our protection and they needed it immediately. The sporting event would have been completed by the time their financial institution could initiate a wire transfer. And it would have been several days later before our bank would have received the payment. However with bitcoin, the customer was able to pay quickly and we were able to activate the protection immediately. Bitcoin is hands-down the fastest way to secure an international payment from a new client in the event of a DDoS attack.“ LOL, maybe not the best source to post when we are talking about legitimate uses.
jacquesm 9y ago
> Cryptocurrencies are used for financial speculation, fraud and illegal trade. You mean like cash? > With only tiny fractions of the cryptocurrency-using fraction of society using them for other purposes. Well, tiny datapoint from tiny fraction: I've only used bitcoin for totally legit stuff. But I concede that all the other transactions might have been financial speculation, fraud and illegal trade. But I can't prove it either way, and I suspect neither can you. > I would not call that nonsense the embrace of a generation. Well, I would not call it nonsense either. And it probably isn't the embrace of a generation. But it is moving the needle.
- lolsal 9y ago
  > You mean like cash? I would guess that the OP means 'yes like cash, but cash is also used for other things whereas crypto currencies are not practically used for anything else.'
  - mrb 9y ago
    "crypto currencies are not practically used" Again and again: no data demonstrates this claim.
    - avaer 9y ago
      The burden of proof isn't on the claim there is no practical usage. The default hypothesis is no usage. The burden of proof is on the claim that non-speculation uses are greater than the speculation uses.
      - mrb 9y ago
        "The default hypothesis is no usage." Says who? I agree speculators are a big fraction of crypto users, but you are making the even bolder claim that "crypto currencies are not practically used". Consider that lots of hard & anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15094514 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15094514
koonsolo 9y ago
Some of the speculation investors really believe in a future with cryptocurrencies. They want to be able to use it for all payments. I would love to go to any country without needing to buy foreign currencies, and do conversion calculations on the spot. I would love to own a currency that is not controlled by governments and banks. I would love to wire transfer money on Friday evening and let it clear on Friday evening instead of Monday or Tuesday. I'm sure it's also more convenient for a European airline to buy a Boeing without needing to time it right for their European bank to transfer the money first to a New York bank and then to Boeing, because of the time difference and bank opening hours. That's crazy, and reality. What a retarded system are we living in? Time for some disruption! Then we will really find out which currencies are in a bubble.

127 9y ago

That's an interesting claim that I'd like to see proven.

kowdermeister 9y ago

* are used for financial speculation, fraud and illegal trade. * gold, diamond, stocks, paper money, etc. would also fit the bill

gnaritas 9y ago
This is a disingenuous comment, all of those other things are primarily used for something else; so you either miss the point he's making or you're being unnecessarily pedantic.
- mrb 9y ago
  Making an overly generalizing statement of a revolutionary technology based on how some people use them in just the first few years they were invented ("cryptocurrencies are used for bad things") is disingenuous and disregards their future potential.
  - gnaritas 9y ago
    No, it's a factual statement of where the tech currently stands. You're confusing your hope of what it might become with what it currently is.
    - mrb 9y ago
      "factual" As I said elsewhere in this thread: you have provided no data to back up your "facts". I am annoyed at people who constantly claim to know how are cryptocurrencies used, but... it's just what they think and have no data to show it.
      - gnaritas 9y ago
        Well hey, I'm annoyed by people who think their delusions of what something could be is the same thing as reality. I'm a huge fan of crypto, but the OP is correct about what it currently is and who's mostly using it. Demanding evidence of people's experience with things is just a cheap cop out to avoid discussion. Anyone involved in the space knows the value is largely speculation driven at this point and if you need that proven to you, then you don't know the tech or the community well enough to be conversing about it.
        mrb 9y ago
        "Anyone involved in the space knows the value is largely speculation" I agree value appears to be driven a lot by speculation, but you are changing subject. We were talking about usage. It's pretty obvious from payment processors, from people in the industry (have you ever attended a Bitcoin conference and talked to users? I have), from usage metrics (increasing tx rate, which is normally not related to speculators, as buying and leaving coins on exchange doesn't create a tx), and from other sources, that usage of cryptos is growing. So, no, you can't say you "just know" cryptocurrencies aren't used by anyone. PS: I am a crypto dev, wrote miners, founded TAV (mining ASIC integrator), and have been in the Bitcoin industry for 7 years. I know a thing or two.
        gnaritas 9y ago
        I agree usage is growing, but that is not the topic. Most coins are moving not because of usage but because of speculation, people are buying largely because of speculation, trading because of speculation, and selling because of speculation; the majority of transaction volume is not coming from using Bitcoin as a currency to buy goods and services, it's from speculators entering the market due to the price rise.
gefh 9y ago
And I would put gold and diamonds in the same bin as cryptocurrencies - a waste of resources that achieves very little good, beyond their industrial uses. Stocks are headed that way. The original use of providing capital to productive enterprise has waned. Paper money is still overwhelmingly used to facilitate legitimate trade, though obviously on a decline.

csomar 9y ago

So? They are being used. The market cap of cryptocurrencies is over $100b which is significant money; and the exchange of these currencies is liquid as of date.

sharemywin 9y ago
Imagine how much they'll be worth when they do something useful...;)
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
gnaritas 9y ago
It's tiny, no more than the size of a single company in the real market. Crypto is cool, no need to exaggerate its size as more relevant than it really is, right it it's a tiny drop in a huge ocean of capital, it is not significant. The market cap of just the top 500 companies is $17.4 trillion.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  This comment sort of annihilates itself. If the market cap of the top 500 companies is 17.4 trillion then that averages out to 17400/500 which is a bit under 35 billion each. Which makes bitcoin as large or larger than a good chunk of those F500 companies. I'm sure you could have picked a better example to illustrate just how tiny bitcoin is.
  - gnaritas 9y ago
    Uh, bitcoin is the size of a single company, that's a pretty good example of how small it is. It's 1/6th the size of Google, that's not a world changing amount of capital.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      Again, that's incredible to me. Just think about it: something that was launched less than a decade ago in 'fire and forget' mode is right up there with one of the tech giants. It's not quite world changing but let's wait until it is over until we call that one.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

stale2002 9y ago

Crytocurrencies provide people with the ability to execute censorship resistant transactions. Who else would want to send censorship resistant transactions other than people who are at risk of being censored? The modern era is still relatively free of censorship, and thus the people using cryto are pretty far on the shady end of the spectrum. But trend toward censorship in the modern era, is worrisome. Perhaps a whole lot more people are going to have to protect themselves against censorship in the future. And by censorship, I mean censorship done by ANYONE, including both the government, AND ultra powerful corporations that may as well be the government.

mrb 9y ago
"The modern era is still relatively free of censorship" Don't take this as an insult but what an ignorant comment... Financial, political & journalistic censorship (all inter-related) is rampant. Start by reading: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press
- jacquesm 9y ago
  And follow up with 'Manufacturing Consent'.
- stale2002 9y ago
  I don't disagree that these things are bad. But all things are relative. Perhaps I just have a bleaker imagination of how bad things COULD be. I worry that as bad as things are today, we will look back on this era as a comparative golden age of freedom.

mrb 9y ago

"tiny fractions" Citation needed. You have no data to back up your claims. In my circles, cryptos seem to be primarily used either for person-to-person transactions (housing rent, beer money, small loans between friends) or--interestingly--B2B payments (US company paying their Chinese suppliers; Bitcoin excels at fast international payments.)

panopticon 9y ago
> cryptos seem to be primarily used either for person-to-person transactions (housing rent, beer money, small loans between friends) I would be pretty miffed if someone as paying me their share of rent in crypto. No merchant I interact with accepts them, so it would be more than a hassle to convert into USD (fees, rapid valuation changes, etc).
- hossbeast 9y ago
  But you might do it anyway, if it's enough of a value to your customers (like accepting a credit card payment)
mynewtb 9y ago
If OP would put substance to their claim, I might be willing to look into that. It's nice that cryptocurrency is used as intermediate in your circles but surely you don't seriously disagree with my 'tiny fractions' of society being like that. Can you give details about those B2B payments?
- mrb 9y ago
  B2B: https://blog.bitpay.com/understanding-bitcoins-growth-in-2015/ https://blog.bitpay.com/understanding-bitcoins-growth-in-201...
  - mynewtb 9y ago
    Recently, an international client was hosting a website surrounding a global sporting event. At a critical moment, their servers came under a DDoS attack. They needed our protection and they needed it immediately. The sporting event would have been completed by the time their financial institution could initiate a wire transfer. And it would have been several days later before our bank would have received the payment. However with bitcoin, the customer was able to pay quickly and we were able to activate the protection immediately. Bitcoin is hands-down the fastest way to secure an international payment from a new client in the event of a DDoS attack.“ LOL, maybe not the best source to post when we are talking about legitimate uses.

jacquesm 9y ago

> Cryptocurrencies are used for financial speculation, fraud and illegal trade. You mean like cash? > With only tiny fractions of the cryptocurrency-using fraction of society using them for other purposes. Well, tiny datapoint from tiny fraction: I've only used bitcoin for totally legit stuff. But I concede that all the other transactions might have been financial speculation, fraud and illegal trade. But I can't prove it either way, and I suspect neither can you. > I would not call that nonsense the embrace of a generation. Well, I would not call it nonsense either. And it probably isn't the embrace of a generation. But it is moving the needle.

lolsal 9y ago
> You mean like cash? I would guess that the OP means 'yes like cash, but cash is also used for other things whereas crypto currencies are not practically used for anything else.'
- mrb 9y ago
  "crypto currencies are not practically used" Again and again: no data demonstrates this claim.
  - avaer 9y ago
    The burden of proof isn't on the claim there is no practical usage. The default hypothesis is no usage. The burden of proof is on the claim that non-speculation uses are greater than the speculation uses.
    - mrb 9y ago
      "The default hypothesis is no usage." Says who? I agree speculators are a big fraction of crypto users, but you are making the even bolder claim that "crypto currencies are not practically used". Consider that lots of hard & anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15094514 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15094514

koonsolo 9y ago

Some of the speculation investors really believe in a future with cryptocurrencies. They want to be able to use it for all payments. I would love to go to any country without needing to buy foreign currencies, and do conversion calculations on the spot. I would love to own a currency that is not controlled by governments and banks. I would love to wire transfer money on Friday evening and let it clear on Friday evening instead of Monday or Tuesday. I'm sure it's also more convenient for a European airline to buy a Boeing without needing to time it right for their European bank to transfer the money first to a New York bank and then to Boeing, because of the time difference and bank opening hours. That's crazy, and reality. What a retarded system are we living in? Time for some disruption! Then we will really find out which currencies are in a bubble.