8 ms·

Am I the only one that would love to be able to buy a dumb TV? I have a Roku and a satellite provider, they can't provide me with anything I don't already have.

Am I the only one that would love to be able to buy a dumb TV? I have a Roku and a satellite provider, they can't provide me with anything I don't already have. I would even be fine with a tuner free TV with no software on it. Give me a handful of HDMI inputs and be done with it. I want a nice screen of decent size and performance that I can turn on and off, that's it. I don't want to pay extra for crappy software that erodes my privacy, provides horribly performing media applications that rot and eventually stop working but there's almost no option whatsoever on the market, even at (or especially at) the high end range.

piva00 9y ago
I'm at the same spot. I have refused to buy a TV for the past year (after I moved out of a furnished apartment) because I can't find a simple, non-Android/whatever-other-OS TV. I refuse buying a TV that comes with a mic or camera embedded, I almost bought a Philips Ambilight but backed off when a friend's one got stuck in an update loop and now don't accept input from the remote anymore when I was visiting, we were stuck watching it with a big black box covering 1/8 of the screen telling us there was an update to be performed. I just want a nice screen, I have an Apple TV, a Nintendo Switch and a Chromecast for whatever else I might need...
ccvannorman 9y ago
Your complaints/criticism in your 3rd paragraph are valid, but we use a Smart TV (Samsung) and it does simplify the process of watching Hulu, Netflix, Amazon or HBO on our screen without any wires or setup other than username/password. Definitely passes "the grandma test" in useability and value. Never had an issue with the software or anything .. if we did, I would definitely be upset with it, but I'd want to recreate the experience with a better Smart TV, not go backwards and have to fiddle with extra wires/devices.
TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
Do they still make traditional TVs for non-consumer markets, I wonder? Surely there's commercial applications which might want that.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- scrabble 9y ago
  It used to be that you could buy them as Digital Signage monitors. But for the most part these might now also be smart devices.
- droopyEyelids 9y ago
  You're looking for a (likely NEC or Sharp) "Display" - they're not called TVs when they're not for the consumer market. http://www.necdisplay.com/p/large-screen-displays/v404 http://www.necdisplay.com/p/large-screen-displays/v404
scrabble 9y ago
The last time I bought a TV it took a bit longer because I insisted on buying a dumb TV. Privacy is a large issue for me, but also not loading my TV up with software that it simply doesn't need. I ended up getting a TV that is not from a major brand, but has ended up looking just fine to me. I would love if more manufacturers continued / resumed selling dumb TVs of high quality.
ellius 9y ago
I'm really going to try to opt out hard on most IoT. Polluting nice, simple tools with half-assed software is no way to build good products.
Kluny 9y ago
Would a monitor do it for you? I've got a 32" monitor that cost about $500, and it doesn't have any smart features whatsoever, not even a video camera. It's not as big as most people's living room TVs seem to be, but it's enough for my taste. If I wanted a really massive screen, I guess I'd get a projector. This assumes that you've got a small computer handy for delivering content, but a chromecast or a roku or all kinds of other things could probably do the trick for that.
- phkahler 9y ago
  >> Would a monitor do it for you? That's funny because I've been planning to but a TV for use as a monitor. Looking for 4K UHD curved 55" with 4:4:4 of course. This would be like having 4 (2x2) 27" 1080p monitors, including having them angled inward. I figure my desktop would be partitioned into 3 columns each 1280 wide, so playing 720p video would be 1/9 of the screen space.
  - Kluny 9y ago
    I'm told that TVs have lower refresh rates that make them unsuitable to use as monitors. Have you looked into that? Maybe it's only relevant if you're gaming.
free652 9y ago
You basically just need a TV that's basically a PC monitor with speakers.
- koolba 9y ago
  Even the speakers are superfluous. Give me an analog audio out and I'll figure it out.
gnicholas 9y ago
We have 2 Vizios that do just this. They're still kind of slow to start up, but they work great with our laptops plugged into them. They're also super cheap — got a 48" from Best Buy for $200 and a 39" off Craigslist for $75.
walterbell 9y ago
You can use a short-throw projector - many inputs, no software, no network connection, adjustable screen size, flexible placement.
- marak830 9y ago
  This is what I have been planning for when I have the cash. I started looking for a good one that I could use for PC gaming as well(not that I have much time altely :-p), luckily for me it won't be for a while and hopefully the price will come down haha
rocky1138 9y ago
Buy a computer monitor.
- JetSetWilly 9y ago
  That might work for a 26 inch screen but it doesn't work for a 46 inch screen. A 46 inch monitor costs a fortune compared to a 46 inch tv, and it usually doesn't have features like HDR. Most of them are orientated towards "public display" type uses rather than being used as tvs.
Keyframe 9y ago
What stops you from using your TV just like that - a dumb TV? Connect it to power and don't connect it to any network and all you have to do is to use your HDMI inputs, volume control and picture adjustment. Ignore everything else. I use it like that. Never had I had to update my TV's software.
- giancarlostoro 9y ago
  The only smart TV I have atm I got with my phone and I did this very thing. I used to have it hooked up to the Wi-Fi but decided to reset everything on it and disconnect it completely (refuse to give it Wi-Fi credentials) and let it be used for what it's used best: being a TV.
- abainbridge 9y ago
  That's what I do with my Samsung TV. It rewards me by making the sound gradually lose sync with the video. I have to turn the TV off and back on again about once an hour to resync. I've often wondered what kind of brain dead software failure is responsible for this. The sound+video come from my Humax box via HDMI into the TV. The TV decodes both, shows the video and plays the audio out of the analogue jack on the back. I plug that into my sound bar (because the TV doesn't support Audio Return Channel, despite being quite new). Rebooting the Humax box and the soundbar doesn't help the sync. My guess is that the thing decoding the HDMI signal feeds sound into the DAC buffer for the audio jack but never checks to see how full that DAC buffer gets. I suspect the DACs reference clock isn't synced to the HDMI data, so clock skew gradually builds. After 2 hours, there is about 1 seconds worth of audio buffered there. It's the kind of thing that gets overlooked when the software team are forced to write a load of crap smart TV stuff when they should be focusing on the basics.
  - pilsetnieks 9y ago
    The people that write the HDMI and DAC firmwares aren't the same people that make the Android apps that the TV software basically is nowadays. Though investing in the latter might mean skimping on the former.
- 9y ago
pjmlp 9y ago
In Germany there are plenty of options available. I just bought a dumb TV last year, and the shop still has them on sale.
- andrewla 9y ago
  Would you mind giving the brand? I don't know if it would be available in the US, but it's always good to have more pointers. Also, what size? At the smaller sizes, monitors are competitive with TVs and avoid the smart stuff, but at the larger sizes (40"+) monitors tend to be extremely expensive compared to "smart" tvs.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    A German brand, Blaupunkt, 32".
    - lxst 9y ago
      Really? I am from Germany and have hard time finding dumb TVs . Blaupunkt TVs (>40'') are hard to find online too. Do you have any store/other brand recommendations?
k3oni 9y ago
And this is why we bought a regular non-smart TV a few months back with 3 HDMI ports. I have a Roku and a Chromecast connected to it and that's about it. I was looking at smart TVs but decided against that, i have a Roku anyway and for the most part it will be easier to upgrade the device in the future than the TV. Plus a non-smart TV is much cheaper anyway.
- andrewla 9y ago
  Would you mind giving the brand and model of the TV? I've been searching around, and some Vizio models seem close, but otherwise it's just monitors, mostly on the smaller size, and much more expensive (?) at the larger sizes than "smart" tvs.
  - k3oni 9y ago
    It was an Insignia 48" NS-48D510NA17 https://www.insigniaproducts.com/pdp/NS-48D510NA17/4807700 https://www.insigniaproducts.com/pdp/NS-48D510NA17/4807700
- basch 9y ago
  smart tvs still have hdmi ports, and you can still put a roku in it. if a smart tv ever became outdated, you just use an hdmi port.
strictnein 9y ago
Vizio has a bunch of TVs that offload almost all the "smart" stuff to an Android tablet, which is also your main remote. Some don't even come with the tablet (I think). They also comes with a small, very simple remote which I use. The only smart stuff the TV has built in is Chromecast functionality. Their "SmartCast" TVs: https://www.vizio.com/tvs.html?technology=839 https://www.vizio.com/tvs.html?technology=839
- myrandomcomment 9y ago
  I had one. Could not get setup to work. Buggy as heck. Returned it. The one I had you could not setup the things I cared about with the small remote.
- basch 9y ago
  they are updating these tvs with apps because it wasnt received well. you get a popup that says "give us your address for a new remote" and they are sending a remote with more buttons so you can interact with the interface.
BlackjackCF 9y ago
Yup! I don't even use any of the features on my smart TV. That's what my PS4 is for. I'm sure people who have Chromecasts, Apple TVs, Rokus... and whatever other Internet-connecting devices you have to attach to a smart TV anyway feel the same way.
nvahalik 9y ago
Nope. In fact just a couple of months ago I walked into Target and said "I want a dumb TV." After a funny look we found the last Dumb TV: a 50" Element... it ended up costing less than $200. It was the last Dumb TV they had and it was a floor model.
drcongo 9y ago
I wrote this [1] 3.5 years ago. I eventually found a dumb 4K LG panel which has been superb. https://medium.com/@drcongo/dumb-tv-d7e42321a7c1 https://medium.com/@drcongo/dumb-tv-d7e42321a7c1
- AndrewCHM 9y ago
  mind linking to the panel you use?
  - drcongo 9y ago
    At the time I bought it, the model number didn't even appear in LG's own range documentation, but it was sold at Tesco in the UK for a while possibly as some kind of experiment. It appears to have been discontinued now: http://www.lg.com/uk/tvs/lg-43UF675V http://www.lg.com/uk/tvs/lg-43UF675V
    - drcongo 9y ago
      Side note: it only has 2 HDMI inputs, but I have it paired with a receiver, so even one of those is redundant.
bitL 9y ago
It's called "monitor".
- SippinLean 9y ago
  Do they sell a lot of monitors near you with built-in TV tuners and RF receivers/remotes?
  - vidarh 9y ago
    For a lot of us the built in TV tuner is that annoying thing we occasionally trigger by accident, and the cause of annoying inputs to skip over when selecting display source... The bigger issue is the size limitations.
- vidarh 9y ago
  If I can find a 42"+ monitor I'd buy monitors (EDIT: at anything remotely close to TV prices anyway). Unfortunately most monitors are small.
  - bitL 9y ago
    There are some cheap Philips 4k monitors over 40". I got your point - why not buy a smart TV and never connect it online? You wouldn't care what is inside if you aren't using it anyway. I have a 55" Samsung 4k and couldn't care less about SW inside. All I do is to route HDMI through A/V receiver and use it as a 4k monitor for my main computer, TV for Kodi NUC and gaming screen for Zotac NEN Steambox...
    - vidarh 9y ago
      I would care because it means convincing the sales people to let me test said TV without a network connection to see that it doesn't e.g. nag me about lacking connection, or have delays when starting due to trying to connect or similar crap. It's annoying enough with the clutter in the UI related to features (analog TV, inputs I have no use for) that we only ever notice because it occasionally gets in our way. And that's on a "dumb" TV. I also care because I don't want to encourage more of that crap.
vidarh 9y ago
I agree. I want one that will handle auto-switching of inputs nicely, and that will be trivial to control on/off, input and volume on via a universal remote. Everything else is an annoyance. Haven't used the built-in tuner or any of the other functionality on a TV in 17 years. Only reason I'm not buying a monitor instead of a TV is size.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Am I the only one that would love to be able to buy a dumb TV? You can find them if you look; Newegg, for instance, has quite a few, but most (even those identified as TVs rather than monitors or digital signage in the item description) are in the Monitors category under computer systems, and not the LCD/LED TV sections under electronics. Above about 46” it looks like it's all super expensive monitors and digital signage (but some refurbished units that aren't too expensive), below that they seem to have some actual TVs with reasonable prices and other units in a similar price range.
basch 9y ago
The TCL P 607 and (LeEco Super4 to a lesser extent) changed my mind. Roku built in, one remote, arc/cec, can control the volume right from it. I can adjust tv and roku settings all without finding the other remote. I dont get in spots where I have to decide if the setting is a TV setting or a roku setting. I like the fire platform as well, and I could see their element tvs having a similar benefit. I'm still not a fan of samsung that much, lg has grown on me, and AndroidTV (leeco/sony) has some real nice polish to it in places. As long as they keep updating the roku, I am happy. having used tcl, sony, leeco, lg, vizio, and amazon software somewhat extensively in the last year, I do now prefer the basic apps to just work right from the tv. its one less thing to troubleshoot. i didnt fully come to believe i liked smart tvs more until i started to notice how little bit worse the roku+vizio experience was than the roku/tcl experince. one phone app to control the device vs two. never having a cec problem. random hdcp failures are nonexistant. I will say, it is telling my favorite smart tvs all run software made by other software companies, and not tv companies (Roku, Google, Amazon, Apple.)

piva00 9y ago

I'm at the same spot. I have refused to buy a TV for the past year (after I moved out of a furnished apartment) because I can't find a simple, non-Android/whatever-other-OS TV. I refuse buying a TV that comes with a mic or camera embedded, I almost bought a Philips Ambilight but backed off when a friend's one got stuck in an update loop and now don't accept input from the remote anymore when I was visiting, we were stuck watching it with a big black box covering 1/8 of the screen telling us there was an update to be performed. I just want a nice screen, I have an Apple TV, a Nintendo Switch and a Chromecast for whatever else I might need...

ccvannorman 9y ago

Your complaints/criticism in your 3rd paragraph are valid, but we use a Smart TV (Samsung) and it does simplify the process of watching Hulu, Netflix, Amazon or HBO on our screen without any wires or setup other than username/password. Definitely passes "the grandma test" in useability and value. Never had an issue with the software or anything .. if we did, I would definitely be upset with it, but I'd want to recreate the experience with a better Smart TV, not go backwards and have to fiddle with extra wires/devices.

TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago

Do they still make traditional TVs for non-consumer markets, I wonder? Surely there's commercial applications which might want that.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
scrabble 9y ago
It used to be that you could buy them as Digital Signage monitors. But for the most part these might now also be smart devices.
droopyEyelids 9y ago
You're looking for a (likely NEC or Sharp) "Display" - they're not called TVs when they're not for the consumer market. http://www.necdisplay.com/p/large-screen-displays/v404 http://www.necdisplay.com/p/large-screen-displays/v404

scrabble 9y ago

The last time I bought a TV it took a bit longer because I insisted on buying a dumb TV. Privacy is a large issue for me, but also not loading my TV up with software that it simply doesn't need. I ended up getting a TV that is not from a major brand, but has ended up looking just fine to me. I would love if more manufacturers continued / resumed selling dumb TVs of high quality.

ellius 9y ago

I'm really going to try to opt out hard on most IoT. Polluting nice, simple tools with half-assed software is no way to build good products.

Kluny 9y ago

Would a monitor do it for you? I've got a 32" monitor that cost about $500, and it doesn't have any smart features whatsoever, not even a video camera. It's not as big as most people's living room TVs seem to be, but it's enough for my taste. If I wanted a really massive screen, I guess I'd get a projector. This assumes that you've got a small computer handy for delivering content, but a chromecast or a roku or all kinds of other things could probably do the trick for that.

phkahler 9y ago
>> Would a monitor do it for you? That's funny because I've been planning to but a TV for use as a monitor. Looking for 4K UHD curved 55" with 4:4:4 of course. This would be like having 4 (2x2) 27" 1080p monitors, including having them angled inward. I figure my desktop would be partitioned into 3 columns each 1280 wide, so playing 720p video would be 1/9 of the screen space.
- Kluny 9y ago
  I'm told that TVs have lower refresh rates that make them unsuitable to use as monitors. Have you looked into that? Maybe it's only relevant if you're gaming.

free652 9y ago

You basically just need a TV that's basically a PC monitor with speakers.

koolba 9y ago
Even the speakers are superfluous. Give me an analog audio out and I'll figure it out.

gnicholas 9y ago

We have 2 Vizios that do just this. They're still kind of slow to start up, but they work great with our laptops plugged into them. They're also super cheap — got a 48" from Best Buy for $200 and a 39" off Craigslist for $75.

walterbell 9y ago

You can use a short-throw projector - many inputs, no software, no network connection, adjustable screen size, flexible placement.

marak830 9y ago
This is what I have been planning for when I have the cash. I started looking for a good one that I could use for PC gaming as well(not that I have much time altely :-p), luckily for me it won't be for a while and hopefully the price will come down haha

rocky1138 9y ago

Buy a computer monitor.

JetSetWilly 9y ago
That might work for a 26 inch screen but it doesn't work for a 46 inch screen. A 46 inch monitor costs a fortune compared to a 46 inch tv, and it usually doesn't have features like HDR. Most of them are orientated towards "public display" type uses rather than being used as tvs.

Keyframe 9y ago

What stops you from using your TV just like that - a dumb TV? Connect it to power and don't connect it to any network and all you have to do is to use your HDMI inputs, volume control and picture adjustment. Ignore everything else. I use it like that. Never had I had to update my TV's software.

giancarlostoro 9y ago
The only smart TV I have atm I got with my phone and I did this very thing. I used to have it hooked up to the Wi-Fi but decided to reset everything on it and disconnect it completely (refuse to give it Wi-Fi credentials) and let it be used for what it's used best: being a TV.
abainbridge 9y ago
That's what I do with my Samsung TV. It rewards me by making the sound gradually lose sync with the video. I have to turn the TV off and back on again about once an hour to resync. I've often wondered what kind of brain dead software failure is responsible for this. The sound+video come from my Humax box via HDMI into the TV. The TV decodes both, shows the video and plays the audio out of the analogue jack on the back. I plug that into my sound bar (because the TV doesn't support Audio Return Channel, despite being quite new). Rebooting the Humax box and the soundbar doesn't help the sync. My guess is that the thing decoding the HDMI signal feeds sound into the DAC buffer for the audio jack but never checks to see how full that DAC buffer gets. I suspect the DACs reference clock isn't synced to the HDMI data, so clock skew gradually builds. After 2 hours, there is about 1 seconds worth of audio buffered there. It's the kind of thing that gets overlooked when the software team are forced to write a load of crap smart TV stuff when they should be focusing on the basics.
- pilsetnieks 9y ago
  The people that write the HDMI and DAC firmwares aren't the same people that make the Android apps that the TV software basically is nowadays. Though investing in the latter might mean skimping on the former.
9y ago

pjmlp 9y ago

In Germany there are plenty of options available. I just bought a dumb TV last year, and the shop still has them on sale.

andrewla 9y ago
Would you mind giving the brand? I don't know if it would be available in the US, but it's always good to have more pointers. Also, what size? At the smaller sizes, monitors are competitive with TVs and avoid the smart stuff, but at the larger sizes (40"+) monitors tend to be extremely expensive compared to "smart" tvs.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  A German brand, Blaupunkt, 32".
  - lxst 9y ago
    Really? I am from Germany and have hard time finding dumb TVs . Blaupunkt TVs (>40'') are hard to find online too. Do you have any store/other brand recommendations?

k3oni 9y ago

And this is why we bought a regular non-smart TV a few months back with 3 HDMI ports. I have a Roku and a Chromecast connected to it and that's about it. I was looking at smart TVs but decided against that, i have a Roku anyway and for the most part it will be easier to upgrade the device in the future than the TV. Plus a non-smart TV is much cheaper anyway.

andrewla 9y ago
Would you mind giving the brand and model of the TV? I've been searching around, and some Vizio models seem close, but otherwise it's just monitors, mostly on the smaller size, and much more expensive (?) at the larger sizes than "smart" tvs.
- k3oni 9y ago
  It was an Insignia 48" NS-48D510NA17 https://www.insigniaproducts.com/pdp/NS-48D510NA17/4807700 https://www.insigniaproducts.com/pdp/NS-48D510NA17/4807700
basch 9y ago
smart tvs still have hdmi ports, and you can still put a roku in it. if a smart tv ever became outdated, you just use an hdmi port.

strictnein 9y ago

Vizio has a bunch of TVs that offload almost all the "smart" stuff to an Android tablet, which is also your main remote. Some don't even come with the tablet (I think). They also comes with a small, very simple remote which I use. The only smart stuff the TV has built in is Chromecast functionality. Their "SmartCast" TVs: https://www.vizio.com/tvs.html?technology=839 https://www.vizio.com/tvs.html?technology=839

myrandomcomment 9y ago
I had one. Could not get setup to work. Buggy as heck. Returned it. The one I had you could not setup the things I cared about with the small remote.
basch 9y ago
they are updating these tvs with apps because it wasnt received well. you get a popup that says "give us your address for a new remote" and they are sending a remote with more buttons so you can interact with the interface.

BlackjackCF 9y ago

Yup! I don't even use any of the features on my smart TV. That's what my PS4 is for. I'm sure people who have Chromecasts, Apple TVs, Rokus... and whatever other Internet-connecting devices you have to attach to a smart TV anyway feel the same way.

nvahalik 9y ago

Nope. In fact just a couple of months ago I walked into Target and said "I want a dumb TV." After a funny look we found the last Dumb TV: a 50" Element... it ended up costing less than $200. It was the last Dumb TV they had and it was a floor model.

drcongo 9y ago

I wrote this [1] 3.5 years ago. I eventually found a dumb 4K LG panel which has been superb. https://medium.com/@drcongo/dumb-tv-d7e42321a7c1 https://medium.com/@drcongo/dumb-tv-d7e42321a7c1

AndrewCHM 9y ago
mind linking to the panel you use?
- drcongo 9y ago
  At the time I bought it, the model number didn't even appear in LG's own range documentation, but it was sold at Tesco in the UK for a while possibly as some kind of experiment. It appears to have been discontinued now: http://www.lg.com/uk/tvs/lg-43UF675V http://www.lg.com/uk/tvs/lg-43UF675V
  - drcongo 9y ago
    Side note: it only has 2 HDMI inputs, but I have it paired with a receiver, so even one of those is redundant.

bitL 9y ago

It's called "monitor".

SippinLean 9y ago
Do they sell a lot of monitors near you with built-in TV tuners and RF receivers/remotes?
- vidarh 9y ago
  For a lot of us the built in TV tuner is that annoying thing we occasionally trigger by accident, and the cause of annoying inputs to skip over when selecting display source... The bigger issue is the size limitations.
vidarh 9y ago
If I can find a 42"+ monitor I'd buy monitors (EDIT: at anything remotely close to TV prices anyway). Unfortunately most monitors are small.
- bitL 9y ago
  There are some cheap Philips 4k monitors over 40". I got your point - why not buy a smart TV and never connect it online? You wouldn't care what is inside if you aren't using it anyway. I have a 55" Samsung 4k and couldn't care less about SW inside. All I do is to route HDMI through A/V receiver and use it as a 4k monitor for my main computer, TV for Kodi NUC and gaming screen for Zotac NEN Steambox...
  - vidarh 9y ago
    I would care because it means convincing the sales people to let me test said TV without a network connection to see that it doesn't e.g. nag me about lacking connection, or have delays when starting due to trying to connect or similar crap. It's annoying enough with the clutter in the UI related to features (analog TV, inputs I have no use for) that we only ever notice because it occasionally gets in our way. And that's on a "dumb" TV. I also care because I don't want to encourage more of that crap.

vidarh 9y ago

I agree. I want one that will handle auto-switching of inputs nicely, and that will be trivial to control on/off, input and volume on via a universal remote. Everything else is an annoyance. Haven't used the built-in tuner or any of the other functionality on a TV in 17 years. Only reason I'm not buying a monitor instead of a TV is size.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> Am I the only one that would love to be able to buy a dumb TV? You can find them if you look; Newegg, for instance, has quite a few, but most (even those identified as TVs rather than monitors or digital signage in the item description) are in the Monitors category under computer systems, and not the LCD/LED TV sections under electronics. Above about 46” it looks like it's all super expensive monitors and digital signage (but some refurbished units that aren't too expensive), below that they seem to have some actual TVs with reasonable prices and other units in a similar price range.

basch 9y ago

The TCL P 607 and (LeEco Super4 to a lesser extent) changed my mind. Roku built in, one remote, arc/cec, can control the volume right from it. I can adjust tv and roku settings all without finding the other remote. I dont get in spots where I have to decide if the setting is a TV setting or a roku setting. I like the fire platform as well, and I could see their element tvs having a similar benefit. I'm still not a fan of samsung that much, lg has grown on me, and AndroidTV (leeco/sony) has some real nice polish to it in places. As long as they keep updating the roku, I am happy. having used tcl, sony, leeco, lg, vizio, and amazon software somewhat extensively in the last year, I do now prefer the basic apps to just work right from the tv. its one less thing to troubleshoot. i didnt fully come to believe i liked smart tvs more until i started to notice how little bit worse the roku+vizio experience was than the roku/tcl experince. one phone app to control the device vs two. never having a cec problem. random hdcp failures are nonexistant. I will say, it is telling my favorite smart tvs all run software made by other software companies, and not tv companies (Roku, Google, Amazon, Apple.)