5 ms·

I'm surprised you think that the funding target seems high. I personally believe their funding target is in the range of 10-20x too small to actually make a sm

by bradfa 9y ago

I'm surprised you think that the funding target seems high. I personally believe their funding target is in the range of 10-20x too small to actually make a smart phone, especially when they plan to make all their own software and not simply reuse Android/Sailfish/Ubuntu as a starting point. I expect that just the certifications for the radios, both for various countries/government agencies and various phone carriers, to cost them many hundreds of thousands of dollars. And that cost has nothing to do with actually designing any of the hardware or software.

bantunes 9y ago
Don't think the phone is 100% in house. They're using a base OEM model from someone that happens to have opensource drivers for everything (which makes me think it's an older model). But even just for the software, it seems low.
- bradfa 9y ago
  They say the hardware will use an i.MX6 or i.MX8 SoC, which I assume implies they are using the Freescale/NXP SoCs. i.MX6 isn't really intended for use in phones (afaik) and I don't know of any recent phones which use i.MX6 in them. i.MX8 isn't publicly available yet, but possibly they could leverage some other vendor's hardware phone design using i.MX8. However, based on the schedule they show in the pledge info, they already have the "PureOS I (CPU)" step mostly completed and they plan to be booting the hardware before the end of 2017, so this seems to make i.MX8 unlikely imho.
  - swiley 9y ago
    i.MX6 was used in the kindle I believe, which I would be using right now if there was an easy way to add more storage.
    - bradfa 9y ago
      Some Kindles may use i.MX6, likely simply because some i.MX6 versions have an integrated e-paper drive subsystem which avoids the need to use an external e-paper controller. I believe early Kindles used the Epson e-paper drive controller.
      - petecox 9y ago
        Perhaps we'll see an e-ink smartphone other than the recently announced Yotaphone 3!
- kogepathic 9y ago
  > They're using a base OEM model from someone that happens to have opensource drivers for everything (which makes me think it's an older model). I... don't think that's the case here. In the specifications they state: CPU separate from Baseband My reading is that modem is connected to the CPU via USB. The only other project I know of that was looking at doing such a thing were the OpenMoko guys (GTA04 with an OMAP3xxx, I think? My memory is fuzzy on this). AFIAK, there are no 3G/4G modems with an open source baseband. So the traditional route for libre/privacy conscious people has been to isolate the baseband from the application processor via USB. Normal phones have the baseband and SoC integrated on the same SoC and connected via a high speed serial bus. On further reading, it's going to be an i.MX6 (because i.MX8 is not available yet and you don't typically use unreleased SoCs for your libre hardware) which is pretty inefficient by modern ARM SoC standards. So this is essentially a small tablet running Linux with an integrated cellular modem.
  - sounds 9y ago
    Yup. On their site: "will work with 2G/3G/4G, GSM, UMTS, and LTE" If it's using something like this: http://a.co/9IVPmkI http://a.co/9IVPmkI -- then maybe it's using the USB pins on a mini PCIe card. I think it would be wise to wait until they have committed to a particular cell modem. Most people will not be able to use a phone day to day if it suffers from: • Dropped calls • Bad call quality • Low speed data (anything less than 4G/LTE)
    - kogepathic 9y ago
      > then maybe it's using the USB pins on a mini PCIe card. Every mini-PCIe cellular modem I've seen interfaces via USB and not via native PCIe. You can even buy adapters to use a mini-PCIe modem as a USB modem. [0] I don't think this is standardized, but it seems to be the defacto standard for all modems in this form factor. Now this may change once LTE/5G speeds regularly exceed what USB 2.0 is capable of since mini-PCIe does not provide pins for USB 3.0, the standard is too old. I would guess they'll move to NGFF as that's already the case for newer business notebooks which offer a WWAN slot. [0] https://www.amazon.com/PCI-E-Adapter-Module-Support-connector/dp/B01FCU61TG/ https://www.amazon.com/PCI-E-Adapter-Module-Support-connecto...
swiley 9y ago
There isn't that much to write, Matchbox has enough to make X11 touchscreen friendly. Really it's just about all the hardware stuff which they've done before I'm sure.
- moosingin3space 9y ago
  Seeing as the screenshots are from Gnome, I'd be surprised if they used X11, considering Gnome's future is on Wayland. Not to mention the irony of shipping a "secure phone" with X11...
  - swiley 9y ago
    I still feel like being tied to X would be better than being tied to android. I use X11 on my laptop as do most people I know. Is it really that hard to just not run apps that you don't trust? There isn't that much out there that isn't built by a fairly popular open source project and is worth using.
    - moosingin3space 9y ago
      With X11, an exploit in any GUI application can be turned into a privilege escalation vulnerability. On Wayland, to achieve the same, an exploit in a GUI application would need to exploit another application running with higher privileges to escalate. Not running apps you don't trust is an overly simplistic security model, and completely ignores exploits.
      - tmzt 9y ago
        X has been able to run rootless with KMS-based drivers for a while now.
      - swiley 9y ago
        An exploit in a Wayland app gets you just as far as an exploit in an X app connected to a modern X server.
pfooti 9y ago
There are two ways to interpret their funding goals: based on projected cost and based on projected backers. 1.5 million dollars may not be very much money for smartphone development, but it is very ambitious as a crowdfund goal. It basically requires around 2500 backers ($1.5MM / $600) to pay $600 out of pocket for a device that, at best, will be delivered in 18 months. Given the success path of most hardware kickstarters, I'd be surprised if this fully funded. The price point is relatively high (even though it is a whole phone, I get that, it is just a lot of money). I'd also be surprised if it actually delivered in 18 months. That's basically saying: "we have the design all done and are in our final mass production engineering phase right now". I mean, if you follow any prior hardware kickstarters that include significant production parts (pebble, keyboardio to name just two), the one major lesson is: mass production takes a ton of time and money to get right.
- bo1024 9y ago
  > the one major lesson is: mass production takes a ton of time and money to get right. True, but that said, Purism has plenty of experience with this entire process through their laptops. Hopefully the lessons they've learned there will help them a lot here. I'm very happy with my Librem 13 laptop so far and pre-ordered a phone. I know there's some risk of failure but I'm happy to put my faith in Purism here, based on what I've seen from them so far.
- jseliger 9y ago
  It basically requires around 2500 backers ($1.5MM / $600) to pay $600 out of pocket for a device that, at best, will be delivered in 18 months. There may also be a handful of people like me who think the idea is cool but don't necessarily want the device (or don't want it right away); I just donated $20.
- nickpsecurity 9y ago
  JackPair is another example that's had tons of hardware issues. Stuff that a new device maker might not see coming. One that does lzptops might also get blindsided moving to mobile where there's extra challenges.
- Accacin 9y ago

by bradfa 9y ago

bantunes 9y ago

Don't think the phone is 100% in house. They're using a base OEM model from someone that happens to have opensource drivers for everything (which makes me think it's an older model). But even just for the software, it seems low.

bradfa 9y ago
They say the hardware will use an i.MX6 or i.MX8 SoC, which I assume implies they are using the Freescale/NXP SoCs. i.MX6 isn't really intended for use in phones (afaik) and I don't know of any recent phones which use i.MX6 in them. i.MX8 isn't publicly available yet, but possibly they could leverage some other vendor's hardware phone design using i.MX8. However, based on the schedule they show in the pledge info, they already have the "PureOS I (CPU)" step mostly completed and they plan to be booting the hardware before the end of 2017, so this seems to make i.MX8 unlikely imho.
- swiley 9y ago
  i.MX6 was used in the kindle I believe, which I would be using right now if there was an easy way to add more storage.
  - bradfa 9y ago
    Some Kindles may use i.MX6, likely simply because some i.MX6 versions have an integrated e-paper drive subsystem which avoids the need to use an external e-paper controller. I believe early Kindles used the Epson e-paper drive controller.
    - petecox 9y ago
      Perhaps we'll see an e-ink smartphone other than the recently announced Yotaphone 3!
kogepathic 9y ago
> They're using a base OEM model from someone that happens to have opensource drivers for everything (which makes me think it's an older model). I... don't think that's the case here. In the specifications they state: CPU separate from Baseband My reading is that modem is connected to the CPU via USB. The only other project I know of that was looking at doing such a thing were the OpenMoko guys (GTA04 with an OMAP3xxx, I think? My memory is fuzzy on this). AFIAK, there are no 3G/4G modems with an open source baseband. So the traditional route for libre/privacy conscious people has been to isolate the baseband from the application processor via USB. Normal phones have the baseband and SoC integrated on the same SoC and connected via a high speed serial bus. On further reading, it's going to be an i.MX6 (because i.MX8 is not available yet and you don't typically use unreleased SoCs for your libre hardware) which is pretty inefficient by modern ARM SoC standards. So this is essentially a small tablet running Linux with an integrated cellular modem.
- sounds 9y ago
  Yup. On their site: "will work with 2G/3G/4G, GSM, UMTS, and LTE" If it's using something like this: http://a.co/9IVPmkI http://a.co/9IVPmkI -- then maybe it's using the USB pins on a mini PCIe card. I think it would be wise to wait until they have committed to a particular cell modem. Most people will not be able to use a phone day to day if it suffers from: • Dropped calls • Bad call quality • Low speed data (anything less than 4G/LTE)
  - kogepathic 9y ago
    > then maybe it's using the USB pins on a mini PCIe card. Every mini-PCIe cellular modem I've seen interfaces via USB and not via native PCIe. You can even buy adapters to use a mini-PCIe modem as a USB modem. [0] I don't think this is standardized, but it seems to be the defacto standard for all modems in this form factor. Now this may change once LTE/5G speeds regularly exceed what USB 2.0 is capable of since mini-PCIe does not provide pins for USB 3.0, the standard is too old. I would guess they'll move to NGFF as that's already the case for newer business notebooks which offer a WWAN slot. [0] https://www.amazon.com/PCI-E-Adapter-Module-Support-connector/dp/B01FCU61TG/ https://www.amazon.com/PCI-E-Adapter-Module-Support-connecto...

swiley 9y ago

There isn't that much to write, Matchbox has enough to make X11 touchscreen friendly. Really it's just about all the hardware stuff which they've done before I'm sure.

moosingin3space 9y ago
Seeing as the screenshots are from Gnome, I'd be surprised if they used X11, considering Gnome's future is on Wayland. Not to mention the irony of shipping a "secure phone" with X11...
- swiley 9y ago
  I still feel like being tied to X would be better than being tied to android. I use X11 on my laptop as do most people I know. Is it really that hard to just not run apps that you don't trust? There isn't that much out there that isn't built by a fairly popular open source project and is worth using.
  - moosingin3space 9y ago
    With X11, an exploit in any GUI application can be turned into a privilege escalation vulnerability. On Wayland, to achieve the same, an exploit in a GUI application would need to exploit another application running with higher privileges to escalate. Not running apps you don't trust is an overly simplistic security model, and completely ignores exploits.
    - tmzt 9y ago
      X has been able to run rootless with KMS-based drivers for a while now.
    - swiley 9y ago
      An exploit in a Wayland app gets you just as far as an exploit in an X app connected to a modern X server.

pfooti 9y ago

There are two ways to interpret their funding goals: based on projected cost and based on projected backers. 1.5 million dollars may not be very much money for smartphone development, but it is very ambitious as a crowdfund goal. It basically requires around 2500 backers ($1.5MM / $600) to pay $600 out of pocket for a device that, at best, will be delivered in 18 months. Given the success path of most hardware kickstarters, I'd be surprised if this fully funded. The price point is relatively high (even though it is a whole phone, I get that, it is just a lot of money). I'd also be surprised if it actually delivered in 18 months. That's basically saying: "we have the design all done and are in our final mass production engineering phase right now". I mean, if you follow any prior hardware kickstarters that include significant production parts (pebble, keyboardio to name just two), the one major lesson is: mass production takes a ton of time and money to get right.

bo1024 9y ago
> the one major lesson is: mass production takes a ton of time and money to get right. True, but that said, Purism has plenty of experience with this entire process through their laptops. Hopefully the lessons they've learned there will help them a lot here. I'm very happy with my Librem 13 laptop so far and pre-ordered a phone. I know there's some risk of failure but I'm happy to put my faith in Purism here, based on what I've seen from them so far.
jseliger 9y ago
It basically requires around 2500 backers ($1.5MM / $600) to pay $600 out of pocket for a device that, at best, will be delivered in 18 months. There may also be a handful of people like me who think the idea is cool but don't necessarily want the device (or don't want it right away); I just donated $20.
nickpsecurity 9y ago
JackPair is another example that's had tons of hardware issues. Stuff that a new device maker might not see coming. One that does lzptops might also get blindsided moving to mobile where there's extra challenges.
Accacin 9y ago