4 ms·

Are we really to the point where Nazi ideologies are spreading like wildfire, to the point that their "intolerance" will be seized by our "tolerance?" To me it

Are we really to the point where Nazi ideologies are spreading like wildfire, to the point that their "intolerance" will be seized by our "tolerance?" To me it seems like the opposite is happening. Nazi ideologies are marginalized and meaningless, yet propped up like some huge threat to us... like they might take over. And this is being used as justification for limiting free speech, in a hyper-politically correct society where even micro-aggressions could be categorized as "hate speech." Perhaps we could just recognize and acknowledge that, while reprehensible, it's not like Nazi believers are anything more than a rounding error in normal society. And then move on with our days.

kenjackson 9y ago
I suspect actually Nazis may be a rounding error, but Nazi believers are probably much more. And in some regions maybe even approaching double digit percentages.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  If we have data let's go with the data. If all we have is opinions, let's go with mine. What are we to do? One way of dealing with the problem would be to ask the question at census time: Do you believe in Nazi or Nazi like ideologies? and then round those people up and put them to death. This has it's own problems.
  - sqeaky 9y ago
    I agree that we shouldn't tolerate intolerance, right up until you said "round those people up and put them to death". Any state run mechanism for this will be abused and infringes on a whole bunch of other rights. Doing things like clamping down speech that incites violence or otherwise directly harms people is working. More options are open for almost all members of minorities than ever before (in terms of jobs, opportunities, legal recourse, etc... ). The nazis are just being loud about it now because they think trump will somehow protect them. Convict and arrest people advocating for the death's of others, financially fine those empowering that one specific kind of speech and the people will continue to get smaller. Without the violence hate speech cannot grow.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
      I meant to highlight that some people are saying free speech is a binary issue, as though we either have free speech or the end of civilisation. There are other options, reasonable limits, as you've pointed out.
  - kenjackson 9y ago
    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/28-approve-trumps-response-charlottesville-poll/story?id=49334079 http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/28-approve-trumps-response-ch... We can go with the data.
bluGill 9y ago
I would argue we have gone the other way: we are so busy stomping down Nazi like ideologies that the stomping it down has become as bad of hate speech as the Nazis were.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  I'm not convinced. If we're going to tolerate Nazi and Nazi-like speech, don't we also have to tolerate those who would should them down? Until we start rounding up Nazis, and Nazi sympathisers, and politely asking them to reside in this here concentration camp and eat this rotten-fish-head-with-cabbage soup, shouting them down seems quite reasonable.
- bashinator 9y ago
  Until the government begins a mass extermination program for haters, I can't help but feel this is a hyperbolic argument. Not granting permits to march is totally incomparable with genocide.
rsync 9y ago
"Are we really to the point where Nazi ideologies are spreading like wildfire, to the point that their "intolerance" will be seized by our "tolerance?"" You're thinking about it a little backwards - here's a fascinating example of the paradox of tolerance: Proposition 8, in California (2008)[1] was a ballet initiative that proposed that "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California". Proposition 8 passed and the post mortem indicated that black and latino/hispanic voters (who are not politically progressive in the manner of coastal californians) voted (overwhelmingly, in the case of blacks) in favor of the proposition - so much so as to be a deciding factor in its passage.[2][3][4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008... [2] http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/70-of-african-a.html http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/70-of-african-... [3] http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/8/blacks-hispanics-nixed-gay-marriage/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/8/blacks-hispan... [4] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/03/26/how-proposition-8-passed-in-california-and-why-it-wouldnt-today/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/03/26/ho...
- ameister14 9y ago
  I don't understand how that is the paradox of intolerance.
  - sqeaky 9y ago
    It is not, but it is still interesting and closely related. The minorities in question were welcomed into society and empowered with votes then promptly voted to oppress another minority. There are clearly problems with this.

kenjackson 9y ago

I suspect actually Nazis may be a rounding error, but Nazi believers are probably much more. And in some regions maybe even approaching double digit percentages.

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
If we have data let's go with the data. If all we have is opinions, let's go with mine. What are we to do? One way of dealing with the problem would be to ask the question at census time: Do you believe in Nazi or Nazi like ideologies? and then round those people up and put them to death. This has it's own problems.
- sqeaky 9y ago
  I agree that we shouldn't tolerate intolerance, right up until you said "round those people up and put them to death". Any state run mechanism for this will be abused and infringes on a whole bunch of other rights. Doing things like clamping down speech that incites violence or otherwise directly harms people is working. More options are open for almost all members of minorities than ever before (in terms of jobs, opportunities, legal recourse, etc... ). The nazis are just being loud about it now because they think trump will somehow protect them. Convict and arrest people advocating for the death's of others, financially fine those empowering that one specific kind of speech and the people will continue to get smaller. Without the violence hate speech cannot grow.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    I meant to highlight that some people are saying free speech is a binary issue, as though we either have free speech or the end of civilisation. There are other options, reasonable limits, as you've pointed out.
- kenjackson 9y ago
  http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/28-approve-trumps-response-charlottesville-poll/story?id=49334079 http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/28-approve-trumps-response-ch... We can go with the data.

bluGill 9y ago

I would argue we have gone the other way: we are so busy stomping down Nazi like ideologies that the stomping it down has become as bad of hate speech as the Nazis were.

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
I'm not convinced. If we're going to tolerate Nazi and Nazi-like speech, don't we also have to tolerate those who would should them down? Until we start rounding up Nazis, and Nazi sympathisers, and politely asking them to reside in this here concentration camp and eat this rotten-fish-head-with-cabbage soup, shouting them down seems quite reasonable.
bashinator 9y ago
Until the government begins a mass extermination program for haters, I can't help but feel this is a hyperbolic argument. Not granting permits to march is totally incomparable with genocide.

rsync 9y ago

"Are we really to the point where Nazi ideologies are spreading like wildfire, to the point that their "intolerance" will be seized by our "tolerance?"" You're thinking about it a little backwards - here's a fascinating example of the paradox of tolerance: Proposition 8, in California (2008)[1] was a ballet initiative that proposed that "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California". Proposition 8 passed and the post mortem indicated that black and latino/hispanic voters (who are not politically progressive in the manner of coastal californians) voted (overwhelmingly, in the case of blacks) in favor of the proposition - so much so as to be a deciding factor in its passage.[2][3][4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008... [2] http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/70-of-african-a.html http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/70-of-african-... [3] http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/8/blacks-hispanics-nixed-gay-marriage/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/8/blacks-hispan... [4] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/03/26/how-proposition-8-passed-in-california-and-why-it-wouldnt-today/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/03/26/ho...

ameister14 9y ago
I don't understand how that is the paradox of intolerance.
- sqeaky 9y ago
  It is not, but it is still interesting and closely related. The minorities in question were welcomed into society and empowered with votes then promptly voted to oppress another minority. There are clearly problems with this.