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Switzerland, Zurich is the only place in Europe where you can earn Bay Area salaries; I am a software engineer/tech recruiter hiring on behalf of a handful of S

by s3nnyy 9y ago

Switzerland, Zurich is the only place in Europe where you can earn Bay Area salaries; I am a software engineer/tech recruiter hiring on behalf of a handful of Swiss companies. If you look for a job (https://coderfit.com/openedjobs/ https://coderfit.com/openedjobs/), or know some engineeres who are, please reach out to me. You find my email in my HN-handle. (From an employee's perspective, Switzerland can be counted "as an EU country" since you can work here with an EU passport.)

eoin_murphy 9y ago
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but while salaries are high and taxes are relatively low, general living costs are quite high. Particularly if you have kids and so want a bigger house and good schools. I've looked at this and the benefits we get from staying in Germany outweigh the extra income earned.
- izacus 9y ago
  The living costs are high, but still noticeably lower than the craziness of US tech hubs.
  - eoin_murphy 9y ago
    True, they're not that crazy, but when I looked at the higher salary Vs the higher costs it was financially better to stay put. Of course money isn't the only deciding factor but it's not the land of massive opportunity it's sometimes presented as. That said, if you've got no dependents and you want to stay in mainland Europe, then it's probably a very good choice.
- Mortiffer 9y ago
  Do your own cost of living estimate. Last year my Junior Software Developer (with ETH Masters) balance sheet looked as follows : Income:8650 Taxes :1640 (income, social etc. ) Food/Drink/Dates: 1560 HealthInsurrance : 346 Rent : 1640 (2 rooms 64sqm) downtown nice part of town Other : 400 So i end up saving 3k per month But i don't have kids that would be >2.5k per kind for daycare.
  - s3nnyy 9y ago
    If you try a bit, you can live for under 2000 CHF or for less than that: "Move to Switzerland, work in IT, live frugally and be free" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1oeSs67myA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1oeSs67myA You pay 2.5k only for a year or two, when the kids are 2-3 years old; after that it's free kindergarten again.
  - eoin_murphy 9y ago
    Thanks for the real numbers. When I was looking the sort of salaries I was being quoted were in the 10000 per month range which is a lot more than what I'm currently on but would actually work out worse once costs are taken into account.
    - Mortiffer 9y ago
      Yea i am at 10000 now, but did not want to redo my finances :P Also I would like to add that my friends who do not speak German are making all making less than 8333 (excluding those at google or a bank).
  - ttam 9y ago
    you only paid 1640 in taxes out of an 8650 income?! that's crazy! even if we include the health insurance, it's still only 2k in taxes out of an 8650 income (less than 25%) a lot of countries in europe will tax you 40% for that income...
    - apexalpha 9y ago
      Usually European taxes are complicated. I make 44k a year but I get about 33k on my bank account each year. This is because even though we have a 33% and 40% rate there are also numerous tax-cuts in place. Ie: in NL you can deduct your entire mortgage rate interest from your gross income. This basically means you get a 40% discount on your mortgage. And there are numerous more.
      - s3nnyy 9y ago
ThePawnBreak 9y ago
I would disagree. Zurich does indeed pay very well, but it's very hard to get a job there, and salaries are only competitive with the Bay Area at lower levels. That means it's possible to find a job that pays 100k, but 300k compensation packages are far, far more rare than in the Bay Area. I don't know any company apart from Google that pays that much for senior engineers. I tried to get a job there about 8 months ago, and I could only convince 3 startups to interview me (after I failed to get a job at Google), and I didn't get an offer at any of them. I failed one for "cultural fit", one because I didn't do well enough in the technical phone screen, and with the third one I decided to stop the process because I had another offer and was tired of interviewing. It's fine to not accept people for cultural reasons, but if there are 4 startups that are hiring in Zurich, that kinda sucks for candidates. Also, recently Google started paying new engineers in Zurich lower than in the US (same salary, far fewer RSUs). I guess the lack of competition in the European market is a good enough reason. Do you know any companies in Zurich hiring developers that pay Bay Area salaries (100k junior, 200k senior) and hire >100 engineers a year?
- dola 9y ago
  There are a few consulting companies doing project work that hire a good amount of people. (However none are even close to you >100 / year number) And also, it will be pretty hard to get near the 200k mark in Zurich if you're not at either a bank with a very specific expertise or at Google.
  - ThePawnBreak 9y ago
    I am talking total compensation (salary + bonus + stock), and at Google you get past 200k at L4, so after the first promotion. New grads used to make around $160k, not it's somewhat less.
- s3nnyy 9y ago
  I am sorry that you had a bad experience interviewing in Zurich. A city with only 300k inhabitants can't be compared with Berlin, London, SF or NYC (all "huge" places). The density of startups and tech firms, when accounted for the tiny size of Zurich, is still impressive, I think. I live here since three years and don't regeret it: "8 reasons why I moved to Switzerland to work in tech" https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-to-switzerland-to-work-in-it-c7ac18af4f90 https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-t...
tiagopc 9y ago
Hello, I just sent you an email.
- s3nnyy 9y ago
  It might take 2-3 days to get answer from me these days. Sorry.
  - tiagopc 9y ago
    No worries ;)
olavgg 9y ago
I think Norway, Oslo absolutely can match or even pay slightly better than Zurich. An annual salary over 100K Euro for a senior software developer is not uncommon.
- misja111 9y ago
  Salaries for senior developers in Zurich start at about 120K and go up to 170K or more. Plus you hardly pay any taxes.

by s3nnyy 9y ago

eoin_murphy 9y ago

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but while salaries are high and taxes are relatively low, general living costs are quite high. Particularly if you have kids and so want a bigger house and good schools. I've looked at this and the benefits we get from staying in Germany outweigh the extra income earned.

izacus 9y ago
The living costs are high, but still noticeably lower than the craziness of US tech hubs.
- eoin_murphy 9y ago
  True, they're not that crazy, but when I looked at the higher salary Vs the higher costs it was financially better to stay put. Of course money isn't the only deciding factor but it's not the land of massive opportunity it's sometimes presented as. That said, if you've got no dependents and you want to stay in mainland Europe, then it's probably a very good choice.
Mortiffer 9y ago
Do your own cost of living estimate. Last year my Junior Software Developer (with ETH Masters) balance sheet looked as follows : Income:8650 Taxes :1640 (income, social etc. ) Food/Drink/Dates: 1560 HealthInsurrance : 346 Rent : 1640 (2 rooms 64sqm) downtown nice part of town Other : 400 So i end up saving 3k per month But i don't have kids that would be >2.5k per kind for daycare.
- s3nnyy 9y ago
  If you try a bit, you can live for under 2000 CHF or for less than that: "Move to Switzerland, work in IT, live frugally and be free" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1oeSs67myA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1oeSs67myA You pay 2.5k only for a year or two, when the kids are 2-3 years old; after that it's free kindergarten again.
- eoin_murphy 9y ago
  Thanks for the real numbers. When I was looking the sort of salaries I was being quoted were in the 10000 per month range which is a lot more than what I'm currently on but would actually work out worse once costs are taken into account.
  - Mortiffer 9y ago
    Yea i am at 10000 now, but did not want to redo my finances :P Also I would like to add that my friends who do not speak German are making all making less than 8333 (excluding those at google or a bank).
- ttam 9y ago
  you only paid 1640 in taxes out of an 8650 income?! that's crazy! even if we include the health insurance, it's still only 2k in taxes out of an 8650 income (less than 25%) a lot of countries in europe will tax you 40% for that income...
  - apexalpha 9y ago
    Usually European taxes are complicated. I make 44k a year but I get about 33k on my bank account each year. This is because even though we have a 33% and 40% rate there are also numerous tax-cuts in place. Ie: in NL you can deduct your entire mortgage rate interest from your gross income. This basically means you get a 40% discount on your mortgage. And there are numerous more.
    - s3nnyy 9y ago

ThePawnBreak 9y ago

I would disagree. Zurich does indeed pay very well, but it's very hard to get a job there, and salaries are only competitive with the Bay Area at lower levels. That means it's possible to find a job that pays 100k, but 300k compensation packages are far, far more rare than in the Bay Area. I don't know any company apart from Google that pays that much for senior engineers. I tried to get a job there about 8 months ago, and I could only convince 3 startups to interview me (after I failed to get a job at Google), and I didn't get an offer at any of them. I failed one for "cultural fit", one because I didn't do well enough in the technical phone screen, and with the third one I decided to stop the process because I had another offer and was tired of interviewing. It's fine to not accept people for cultural reasons, but if there are 4 startups that are hiring in Zurich, that kinda sucks for candidates. Also, recently Google started paying new engineers in Zurich lower than in the US (same salary, far fewer RSUs). I guess the lack of competition in the European market is a good enough reason. Do you know any companies in Zurich hiring developers that pay Bay Area salaries (100k junior, 200k senior) and hire >100 engineers a year?

dola 9y ago
There are a few consulting companies doing project work that hire a good amount of people. (However none are even close to you >100 / year number) And also, it will be pretty hard to get near the 200k mark in Zurich if you're not at either a bank with a very specific expertise or at Google.
- ThePawnBreak 9y ago
  I am talking total compensation (salary + bonus + stock), and at Google you get past 200k at L4, so after the first promotion. New grads used to make around $160k, not it's somewhat less.
s3nnyy 9y ago
I am sorry that you had a bad experience interviewing in Zurich. A city with only 300k inhabitants can't be compared with Berlin, London, SF or NYC (all "huge" places). The density of startups and tech firms, when accounted for the tiny size of Zurich, is still impressive, I think. I live here since three years and don't regeret it: "8 reasons why I moved to Switzerland to work in tech" https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-to-switzerland-to-work-in-it-c7ac18af4f90 https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-t...

tiagopc 9y ago

Hello, I just sent you an email.

s3nnyy 9y ago
It might take 2-3 days to get answer from me these days. Sorry.
- tiagopc 9y ago
  No worries ;)

olavgg 9y ago

I think Norway, Oslo absolutely can match or even pay slightly better than Zurich. An annual salary over 100K Euro for a senior software developer is not uncommon.

misja111 9y ago
Salaries for senior developers in Zurich start at about 120K and go up to 170K or more. Plus you hardly pay any taxes.