4 ms·

That's probably true, but there's a lot more that goes into employment decisions beyond compensation. As an early startup employee, I'm working for (all things

That's probably true, but there's a lot more that goes into employment decisions beyond compensation. As an early startup employee, I'm working for (all things considered) less money than I was when I was working in the defense industry. But I also don't loathe my job or lay awake at night, stressed about the idiocy and bureaucracy that made my days hellish, Kafkaesque, comedic nightmares. That's worth more a LOT more than ~$10k/year and a guaranteed 'career'.

drewcrawford 16y ago
False dilemma: there are plenty of jobs that pay fair market rates that don't involve hellish idiocy and bureaucracy. It's not somehow automatic in companies that are a different age than post-founder pre-funding. There's nothing about a pre-funded startup that magically banishes the "kafkaesque". Conversely, there's nothing about being well-funded that keeps you from sleeping at night (quite the opposite, actually).
- sofuture 16y ago
  I didn't say otherwise. I'm saying that my current job, taken as a whole, as valued by me, benefits me more than my last job.
  - jrockway 16y ago
    But the implication was that it had something to do with it being a startup. There are plenty of startups with neurotic founders, and plenty of big companies that aren't a Kafkaesque nightmare.
    - sofuture 16y ago
      Right, I implied that it had something to do with being a startup because it does. In this specific example. I'm not saying that 'all startups good, all big company bad' is some sort of globally applicable law and I'm not sure how or why anyone would read that into what I've said.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- rdl 16y ago
  Early startups have super high variance. Some are utterly Kafka hellish, others are great. Unless you are either a strong personality and able to influence (which is kinda unlikely IMO if this is your first real job or first startup, and if you can't just quit at any time.), you have a good chance of losing. A funded startup is almost as good a learning opportunity for tech people, with some assurance that it won't be hell (legal liability, the selection and survivor bias, bigger team)
- plinkplonk 16y ago
  "False dilemma: there are plenty of jobs that pay fair market rates that don't involve hellish idiocy and bureaucracy. It's not somehow automatic in companies that are a different age than post-founder pre-funding." True in California. Not so much in other places. In India, you can work for body shopper process heavy companies (Wipro Infosys etc) , "India dev center" s of MegaCorps, which are universally severely dysfunctional and bureaucratic (Even Google and Yahoo aren't immune, their Indian operations are overrun by Middle Management and by and large, you get (relatively) crappy work (ops/legacy code etc)). Or you can work for the very few decent startups at below-market rates. Choices, choices ;-) Not so much opposing your view point as qualifying it a bit. PS: If anyone knows of an Indian company that pays well, has great work, and is not infested by bureaucracy, let us know. I have friends who are looking to move from both Kafkaesque BigCo jobs and underpaid startup jobs.
mattrepl 16y ago
Financial compensation is only part of it. Most startups include longer hours and additional responsibilities that limit what else you can do with your life, such as have a relationship, spend time with friends, or work on a side project. I'd guess you're at an established startup if you're only making ~$10k/year less than your last job in the defense industry. Pre-Series A startups are unlikely to pay even a third of what you'd make in that industry.
- rdl 16y ago
  A good eng in defense (at the level needed to be a startup founder) should be making 150 uncleared to 250 secret to 300 ts or project lead or more if deployable. Working 40 hour weeks (well, working 5 hour weeks with 35 hours of meetings, admin, paperwork, and overhead) A pre series a eng is making 30 to 60 if lucky. At series a, maybe 80 to 100. Defense is almost a perpetual job, whereas the half life of a pre series a startup is maybe 3 months, 1 yr for series a. (apologies for formatting, on iPad)
  - gwc 16y ago
    A programmer working defense state-side does not make nearly those figures. 80 to 100 is much closer to what a software engineer with several years of experience makes working for a defense contractor than 250, though of course actual years of experience and how well one has played the corporate ladder game can make a big impact. Past a certain point it is relatively difficult to advance salary-wise without taking on management roles and giving up the hands-dirty side of programming / engineering. Once you're there it's an apples-to-oranges comparison for the kind of startups that are typical for HN-types ~ certainly no early stage startup is going to hire a 10-year manager to be employee #1 when what they really need is a hotshot programmer.
    - rdl 16y ago
      I admit my knowledge of stateside engineers in the large defense contractors is secondhand; trying to convert known deployed salaries and known eng and pm salaries at small product companies selling to usg. Substitute working for a fund on the dev side and double my numbers to make the original argument stronger.

drewcrawford 16y ago

False dilemma: there are plenty of jobs that pay fair market rates that don't involve hellish idiocy and bureaucracy. It's not somehow automatic in companies that are a different age than post-founder pre-funding. There's nothing about a pre-funded startup that magically banishes the "kafkaesque". Conversely, there's nothing about being well-funded that keeps you from sleeping at night (quite the opposite, actually).

sofuture 16y ago
I didn't say otherwise. I'm saying that my current job, taken as a whole, as valued by me, benefits me more than my last job.
- jrockway 16y ago
  But the implication was that it had something to do with it being a startup. There are plenty of startups with neurotic founders, and plenty of big companies that aren't a Kafkaesque nightmare.
  - sofuture 16y ago
    Right, I implied that it had something to do with being a startup because it does. In this specific example. I'm not saying that 'all startups good, all big company bad' is some sort of globally applicable law and I'm not sure how or why anyone would read that into what I've said.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
rdl 16y ago
Early startups have super high variance. Some are utterly Kafka hellish, others are great. Unless you are either a strong personality and able to influence (which is kinda unlikely IMO if this is your first real job or first startup, and if you can't just quit at any time.), you have a good chance of losing. A funded startup is almost as good a learning opportunity for tech people, with some assurance that it won't be hell (legal liability, the selection and survivor bias, bigger team)
plinkplonk 16y ago
"False dilemma: there are plenty of jobs that pay fair market rates that don't involve hellish idiocy and bureaucracy. It's not somehow automatic in companies that are a different age than post-founder pre-funding." True in California. Not so much in other places. In India, you can work for body shopper process heavy companies (Wipro Infosys etc) , "India dev center" s of MegaCorps, which are universally severely dysfunctional and bureaucratic (Even Google and Yahoo aren't immune, their Indian operations are overrun by Middle Management and by and large, you get (relatively) crappy work (ops/legacy code etc)). Or you can work for the very few decent startups at below-market rates. Choices, choices ;-) Not so much opposing your view point as qualifying it a bit. PS: If anyone knows of an Indian company that pays well, has great work, and is not infested by bureaucracy, let us know. I have friends who are looking to move from both Kafkaesque BigCo jobs and underpaid startup jobs.

mattrepl 16y ago

Financial compensation is only part of it. Most startups include longer hours and additional responsibilities that limit what else you can do with your life, such as have a relationship, spend time with friends, or work on a side project. I'd guess you're at an established startup if you're only making ~$10k/year less than your last job in the defense industry. Pre-Series A startups are unlikely to pay even a third of what you'd make in that industry.

rdl 16y ago
A good eng in defense (at the level needed to be a startup founder) should be making 150 uncleared to 250 secret to 300 ts or project lead or more if deployable. Working 40 hour weeks (well, working 5 hour weeks with 35 hours of meetings, admin, paperwork, and overhead) A pre series a eng is making 30 to 60 if lucky. At series a, maybe 80 to 100. Defense is almost a perpetual job, whereas the half life of a pre series a startup is maybe 3 months, 1 yr for series a. (apologies for formatting, on iPad)
- gwc 16y ago
  A programmer working defense state-side does not make nearly those figures. 80 to 100 is much closer to what a software engineer with several years of experience makes working for a defense contractor than 250, though of course actual years of experience and how well one has played the corporate ladder game can make a big impact. Past a certain point it is relatively difficult to advance salary-wise without taking on management roles and giving up the hands-dirty side of programming / engineering. Once you're there it's an apples-to-oranges comparison for the kind of startups that are typical for HN-types ~ certainly no early stage startup is going to hire a 10-year manager to be employee #1 when what they really need is a hotshot programmer.
  - rdl 16y ago
    I admit my knowledge of stateside engineers in the large defense contractors is secondhand; trying to convert known deployed salaries and known eng and pm salaries at small product companies selling to usg. Substitute working for a fund on the dev side and double my numbers to make the original argument stronger.