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Ok. Do these guys that commit white collar crime not know how a passport works? If you have millions of dollars stashed in bank accounts WHY are you in the US?

Ok. Do these guys that commit white collar crime not know how a passport works? If you have millions of dollars stashed in bank accounts WHY are you in the US? Why are you buying estates and testing out a new bmwI8 and spilling champagne all over? Why not get on a plane go to Morocco (a country with an extremely complex extradition process)? wtf. Even the guy running silk road was hanging out in SF now lives in a 4x6 concrete cube - instead why not hang out with Edward Snowden in a Russian bar or whatever. This guy for example the FBI calls just to chat. They can't touch him. http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/11/felon_shares_inside_story_of_o.html http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/11/felon_share...

arcanus 9y ago
I've also always wondered this. But people seldom run. I think Snowden had seen enough of the sausage being made to realize that hiding in the USA was impossible, given the security apparatus' capabilities.
- notfromhere 9y ago
  Given that he defected to Moscow, staying in the US wasn't an option
  - pseingatl 9y ago
    Snowden didn't defect. He was on his way to Venezuela, which had granted him asylum. The US canceled his passport, stranding him in Russia. Even though the Venezuelan Air Force has an Airbus, flying to Russia non-stop was not feasible--Evo Morales, the president of Bolivia, had his plane forced down on the suspicion that Snowden was aboard. Still, if Putin wanted to get Snowden to Venezuela, all he had to do was put him aboard a Russian nuclear submarine. In ten days, Snowden would be in Maiquetia with no risk of interference. As it turns out, Russia is probably a safer place for Snowden than today's Venezuela.
    - wbl 9y ago
      If Venezuela was willing to let him travel there they could have issued him documentation to do so.
      - metalliqaz 9y ago
        He would have had to get there. He was stuck behind customs in a Russian airport and the president's plane had already been grounded looking for him.
      - gknoy 9y ago
        Documentation sounds like it would do very little to deter rendition by a nation-state.
        lostlogin 9y ago
        Kidnapping from another country followed by torture has only been done by a couple of countries recently. The term 'rendition' sounds much more civilised though, and 'nation-state' makes it sound like a government other than that of the US might do it to Snowden.
        justadeveloper2 9y ago
        It's an ugly, ugly exercise of power. I have the odd tie in of having lived near an airport in NC where the CIA was operating small jets to conduct those "renditions" (read: kidnappings) overseas during the Bush II years. The other place in the US that is weird: The base known as "The Farm" right next to Colonial Williamsburg which is neither fish nor fowl--a lot of people and things get moved in and out of the US from there with zero accountability. We badly need to get the US government back under control because the things done in our names are simply evil.
      - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
        Please read the post you're responding to again.
  - metalliqaz 9y ago
    Crazy that people still believe this stupid lie, easily debunked by 30 seconds on Wikipedia. Even crazier is that the people who really wanted to string Snowden up by the neck were the conservatives, because they love law enforcement and are willing to give up freedom in order to fight Islamic terrorism. In other words, supporting Big Brother despite ostensibly wanting less government. Crazier still is that those same people, the ones who were demonizing Snowden for ending up in Russia, are now in love with Assange and Putin because Trump. "Two things are infinite: the Universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the Universe."
    - chaostheory 9y ago
      > Even crazier is that the people who really wanted to string Snowden up by the neck were the conservatives I strongly feel that this had bipartisan support across the aisles. Obama supported it, despite his pledge to protect whistle blowers. Hillary was no different.
      - asveikau 9y ago
        It's true that this was bipartisan amongst elected officials, and strangely to me, a number of liberal people in my native DC area that I still talk to. I think there were varying degrees though. Do you think Trump would have let Manning go for example? I'm not sure that even Hillary would have. And yet Obama did, eventually. Also, there is little doubt in my mind that mutual hate of Hillary brought together WikiLeaks and several previously unlikely allies.
        chaostheory 9y ago
        > you think Trump would have let Manning go for example? I'm not sure that even Hillary would have. Of course not, I'm just trying to dispel the myth that the world is in black and white. You can't just hold the 'other' party accountable. We need to look in the mirror.
      - louithethrid 9y ago
        Powerthirsty psychopaths of all factions unite against the puppets marching of on theire own.
- jwhitlark 9y ago
  Part of it is the psychology of it. The fraud triangle is opportunity, rationalization, and pressure. Many people have convinced themselves that they're not doing anything wrong, or that they deserve it. If you're not doing something wrong, why flee? Others get greedy. I had an accounting professor who used to say, "If you're going to steal, steal big and steal once."
- justadeveloper2 9y ago
  Psychology--people will try to remain close to places and people they know. There are many examples such behavior especially during natural disasters when they are commanded or know they should flee but don't.
aw3c2 9y ago
Maybe because they like living in the US and like having that money there? I doubt that a want to completely changing one's culture is what drives people to commit monetary fraud.
- throwawaywonk 9y ago
  It's not about not wanting to change your culture, it's about wanting to keep the money and not go to jail... The parent wasn't suggesting that wanting to see other cultures drives people to commit fraud, the parent was wondering why people commit fraud and then continue to remain in the very punitive, very advanced nation where they committed the fraud.
- ransom1538 9y ago
  Living in a 4x6 concrete cube would be much more of culture shock for me.
  - prawn 9y ago
    He didn't do it assuming he'd get caught.
Swizec 9y ago
> Why not get on a plane go to Morocco (a country with an extremely complex extradition process)? Why don't people in poor countries just move to better countries? Why do people stay in the rust belt instead of moving to the coast? Why do people on the coast whine about rent instead of moving inland? Leaving everything you know is hard. To quote a famous quote > I always wonder why birds choose to stay in the same place when they can fly anywhere on the earth, then I ask myself the same question.”
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- celim307 9y ago
  Not really a good analogy as the limiting factor in your scenarios is often money
  - badestrand 9y ago
    No, it is a valid point. Take Germany for example: In the neighbouring country Switzerland you can easily earn twice as much and the higher living costs only cancel out a part of the difference. >80% of Germans would have the money to move and would be much better off and still only very few do it (<2%). Same with all the unemployment in Spain, people could move to e.g. Germany in masses but they don't. People just don't like change and are not the rational players everyone wants them to be.
    - rixed 9y ago
      Unless maximising income is not equivalent as behaving rationally, which is always a possibility.
    - readittwice 9y ago
      I've worked in Switzerland as a consultant and there were Germans all around. A friend of mine makes more money waitressing in Switzerland than I make as a SW engineer in Austria. So I am kind of guilty too ;) Actually there are quite a lot of young people from Spain & e.g. Romanians that leave their countries. Emigration in Romania is quite a big problem (from 23 million to 20 million people). I guess it depends on your definition of "moving in masses".
hkmurakami 9y ago
I'll take the simple answer here, that you're giving these folks too much credit wrt to knowing how "the system" works.
cm2187 9y ago
When a country really wants to get you, there aren't many safe places in the world. The terrorist Carlos got abducted by the French intelligence service. Eichmann by the Israeli services. There are less famous cases (like the Kalinka Bamberski case). What's interesting in that in all of those cases, these illegal means of grabbing the suspect abroad didn't invalidate the case against him and in all of those examples the suspect was then charged and sentenced. So yeah maybe, but only for some petty crimes.
- jonknee 9y ago
  There aren't many safe places in the world if you're a terrorist or wanted for other types of violence, but financial crime is practically a national industry in lots of places.
  - stevenwoo 9y ago
    Iran is a pretty safe bet if you are hiding from the West as long as the crimes are not committed against Iranians. https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/jl0523.aspx https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/j... https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/07/the-short-violent-life-of-abu-musab-al-zarqawi/304983/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/07/the-sho...
  - jopsen 9y ago
    Most people would rather be middle class Americans than rich Iranians.
  - justadeveloper2 9y ago
    China.
- umanwizard 9y ago
  We're not talking about terrorists or Nazis here. Do you really think we'd be sending Seal Team Six to get some guy who scammed the lottery? He didn't even catch federal charges.
mikeash 9y ago
I think they don't know when to stop. Fleeing the country would put an end to their criminal career, and they continue to see dollar signs. By the time they realize that the authorities will put a stop to it anyway, it's too late.
- louithethrid 9y ago
  The art is to provide a clueless playboy to take the fall, so whoever has also monetary gains can sneak off in the storys background while a exempel is statuated for moral reasons.
Spooky23 9y ago
Good luck. It's pretty difficult with the various capital controls in place to get lots of money out of the US without attracting attention. The Governor of NY was run out of office and nearly prosecuted when some bank compliance officer when transferring a few thousand bucks to a escort service.
- gnaritas 9y ago
  > Good luck. It's pretty difficult with the various capital controls in place to get lots of money out of the US without attracting attention. No it isn't, buy Bitcoin, store coin in brain wallet, walk across any border.
  - Spivak 9y ago
    Sure, but then you've changed the game into finding a way to purchase that much Bitcoin and also find a way to liquidate that much Bitcoin once you realize that few merchants accept it.
    - gnaritas 9y ago
      That's a much easier game, it's a 150 billion dollar market that trades a few billion a day; converting millions is nothing. Nor do you need to liquidate it all at once at your destination, you can take your time.
      - falsedan 9y ago
        No one's questioning the liquidity of the BC market; getting the money to and from the exchange would be a gigantic hassle. Banks generally have reporting requirements for transactions of a certain size, many countries are more uptight about opening accounts (Know Your Customer laws) due to previous terrorism-related money-laundering operations; as a US citizen, he'd have the burden of reporting his overseas income back to the IRS (failure of which may trigger asset seizure back in the USA, which might be a problem if he bought a house for his parents).
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dsfyu404ed 9y ago
If the exploit looks super obvious and you're not hearing about people using it that's a good indication that people are using it and smart enough to keep their mouths shut.
kamaal 9y ago
Its not just with fraud, its with anything that comes for free. Sometimes also called luck. The general idea is if you are lucky, you will be lucky enough all life. And the party will never end. Its only when it stops you realize that you could have saved up and moved on long back. You can't have the whole world.
martinko 9y ago
2 mil. really isn't all that much. He would blow it quite fast if he lived how you described.
- lawless123 9y ago
  Yeah you could live on that comfortably for the rest of your life, but not extravagantly.
jondubois 9y ago
Interesting how people here on HN tend to bash criminals because of their stupidity instead of focusing on their poor ethics. How society has changed. Sometimes it seems that the idea that "It's not a crime unless you get caught" has become mainstream. It doesn't seem to be a very solid foundation for a society. Hopefully this is just harmless fun discussing hypotheticals.
- ZoomZoomZoom 9y ago
  This is just automatic engaging of a problem-solving mindset, I believe.
- _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
  If there is a wide consensus on "poor ethics" here on HN, why comment?
_Codemonkeyism 9y ago
Cynic in me would point out that for most people in the US does not exist in any way.
artur_makly 9y ago
ironically John Macafee did the opposite and ran back to the US as a #1murder suspect and rapist : http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mcafee-documentary-gringo-belize-murder-allegations-2016-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mcafee-documentary-gring...

arcanus 9y ago

I've also always wondered this. But people seldom run. I think Snowden had seen enough of the sausage being made to realize that hiding in the USA was impossible, given the security apparatus' capabilities.

notfromhere 9y ago
Given that he defected to Moscow, staying in the US wasn't an option
- pseingatl 9y ago
  Snowden didn't defect. He was on his way to Venezuela, which had granted him asylum. The US canceled his passport, stranding him in Russia. Even though the Venezuelan Air Force has an Airbus, flying to Russia non-stop was not feasible--Evo Morales, the president of Bolivia, had his plane forced down on the suspicion that Snowden was aboard. Still, if Putin wanted to get Snowden to Venezuela, all he had to do was put him aboard a Russian nuclear submarine. In ten days, Snowden would be in Maiquetia with no risk of interference. As it turns out, Russia is probably a safer place for Snowden than today's Venezuela.
  - wbl 9y ago
    If Venezuela was willing to let him travel there they could have issued him documentation to do so.
    - metalliqaz 9y ago
      He would have had to get there. He was stuck behind customs in a Russian airport and the president's plane had already been grounded looking for him.
    - gknoy 9y ago
      Documentation sounds like it would do very little to deter rendition by a nation-state.
      - lostlogin 9y ago
        Kidnapping from another country followed by torture has only been done by a couple of countries recently. The term 'rendition' sounds much more civilised though, and 'nation-state' makes it sound like a government other than that of the US might do it to Snowden.
        justadeveloper2 9y ago
        It's an ugly, ugly exercise of power. I have the odd tie in of having lived near an airport in NC where the CIA was operating small jets to conduct those "renditions" (read: kidnappings) overseas during the Bush II years. The other place in the US that is weird: The base known as "The Farm" right next to Colonial Williamsburg which is neither fish nor fowl--a lot of people and things get moved in and out of the US from there with zero accountability. We badly need to get the US government back under control because the things done in our names are simply evil.
    - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
      Please read the post you're responding to again.
- metalliqaz 9y ago
  Crazy that people still believe this stupid lie, easily debunked by 30 seconds on Wikipedia. Even crazier is that the people who really wanted to string Snowden up by the neck were the conservatives, because they love law enforcement and are willing to give up freedom in order to fight Islamic terrorism. In other words, supporting Big Brother despite ostensibly wanting less government. Crazier still is that those same people, the ones who were demonizing Snowden for ending up in Russia, are now in love with Assange and Putin because Trump. "Two things are infinite: the Universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the Universe."
  - chaostheory 9y ago
    > Even crazier is that the people who really wanted to string Snowden up by the neck were the conservatives I strongly feel that this had bipartisan support across the aisles. Obama supported it, despite his pledge to protect whistle blowers. Hillary was no different.
    - asveikau 9y ago
      It's true that this was bipartisan amongst elected officials, and strangely to me, a number of liberal people in my native DC area that I still talk to. I think there were varying degrees though. Do you think Trump would have let Manning go for example? I'm not sure that even Hillary would have. And yet Obama did, eventually. Also, there is little doubt in my mind that mutual hate of Hillary brought together WikiLeaks and several previously unlikely allies.
      - chaostheory 9y ago
        > you think Trump would have let Manning go for example? I'm not sure that even Hillary would have. Of course not, I'm just trying to dispel the myth that the world is in black and white. You can't just hold the 'other' party accountable. We need to look in the mirror.
    - louithethrid 9y ago
      Powerthirsty psychopaths of all factions unite against the puppets marching of on theire own.
jwhitlark 9y ago
Part of it is the psychology of it. The fraud triangle is opportunity, rationalization, and pressure. Many people have convinced themselves that they're not doing anything wrong, or that they deserve it. If you're not doing something wrong, why flee? Others get greedy. I had an accounting professor who used to say, "If you're going to steal, steal big and steal once."
justadeveloper2 9y ago
Psychology--people will try to remain close to places and people they know. There are many examples such behavior especially during natural disasters when they are commanded or know they should flee but don't.

aw3c2 9y ago

Maybe because they like living in the US and like having that money there? I doubt that a want to completely changing one's culture is what drives people to commit monetary fraud.

throwawaywonk 9y ago
It's not about not wanting to change your culture, it's about wanting to keep the money and not go to jail... The parent wasn't suggesting that wanting to see other cultures drives people to commit fraud, the parent was wondering why people commit fraud and then continue to remain in the very punitive, very advanced nation where they committed the fraud.
ransom1538 9y ago
Living in a 4x6 concrete cube would be much more of culture shock for me.
- prawn 9y ago
  He didn't do it assuming he'd get caught.

Swizec 9y ago

> Why not get on a plane go to Morocco (a country with an extremely complex extradition process)? Why don't people in poor countries just move to better countries? Why do people stay in the rust belt instead of moving to the coast? Why do people on the coast whine about rent instead of moving inland? Leaving everything you know is hard. To quote a famous quote > I always wonder why birds choose to stay in the same place when they can fly anywhere on the earth, then I ask myself the same question.”

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
celim307 9y ago
Not really a good analogy as the limiting factor in your scenarios is often money
- badestrand 9y ago
  No, it is a valid point. Take Germany for example: In the neighbouring country Switzerland you can easily earn twice as much and the higher living costs only cancel out a part of the difference. >80% of Germans would have the money to move and would be much better off and still only very few do it (<2%). Same with all the unemployment in Spain, people could move to e.g. Germany in masses but they don't. People just don't like change and are not the rational players everyone wants them to be.
  - rixed 9y ago
    Unless maximising income is not equivalent as behaving rationally, which is always a possibility.
  - readittwice 9y ago
    I've worked in Switzerland as a consultant and there were Germans all around. A friend of mine makes more money waitressing in Switzerland than I make as a SW engineer in Austria. So I am kind of guilty too ;) Actually there are quite a lot of young people from Spain & e.g. Romanians that leave their countries. Emigration in Romania is quite a big problem (from 23 million to 20 million people). I guess it depends on your definition of "moving in masses".

hkmurakami 9y ago

I'll take the simple answer here, that you're giving these folks too much credit wrt to knowing how "the system" works.

cm2187 9y ago

When a country really wants to get you, there aren't many safe places in the world. The terrorist Carlos got abducted by the French intelligence service. Eichmann by the Israeli services. There are less famous cases (like the Kalinka Bamberski case). What's interesting in that in all of those cases, these illegal means of grabbing the suspect abroad didn't invalidate the case against him and in all of those examples the suspect was then charged and sentenced. So yeah maybe, but only for some petty crimes.

jonknee 9y ago
There aren't many safe places in the world if you're a terrorist or wanted for other types of violence, but financial crime is practically a national industry in lots of places.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  Iran is a pretty safe bet if you are hiding from the West as long as the crimes are not committed against Iranians. https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/jl0523.aspx https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/j... https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/07/the-short-violent-life-of-abu-musab-al-zarqawi/304983/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/07/the-sho...
- jopsen 9y ago
  Most people would rather be middle class Americans than rich Iranians.
- justadeveloper2 9y ago
  China.
umanwizard 9y ago
We're not talking about terrorists or Nazis here. Do you really think we'd be sending Seal Team Six to get some guy who scammed the lottery? He didn't even catch federal charges.

mikeash 9y ago

I think they don't know when to stop. Fleeing the country would put an end to their criminal career, and they continue to see dollar signs. By the time they realize that the authorities will put a stop to it anyway, it's too late.

louithethrid 9y ago
The art is to provide a clueless playboy to take the fall, so whoever has also monetary gains can sneak off in the storys background while a exempel is statuated for moral reasons.

Spooky23 9y ago

Good luck. It's pretty difficult with the various capital controls in place to get lots of money out of the US without attracting attention. The Governor of NY was run out of office and nearly prosecuted when some bank compliance officer when transferring a few thousand bucks to a escort service.

gnaritas 9y ago
> Good luck. It's pretty difficult with the various capital controls in place to get lots of money out of the US without attracting attention. No it isn't, buy Bitcoin, store coin in brain wallet, walk across any border.
- Spivak 9y ago
  Sure, but then you've changed the game into finding a way to purchase that much Bitcoin and also find a way to liquidate that much Bitcoin once you realize that few merchants accept it.
  - gnaritas 9y ago
    That's a much easier game, it's a 150 billion dollar market that trades a few billion a day; converting millions is nothing. Nor do you need to liquidate it all at once at your destination, you can take your time.
    - falsedan 9y ago
      No one's questioning the liquidity of the BC market; getting the money to and from the exchange would be a gigantic hassle. Banks generally have reporting requirements for transactions of a certain size, many countries are more uptight about opening accounts (Know Your Customer laws) due to previous terrorism-related money-laundering operations; as a US citizen, he'd have the burden of reporting his overseas income back to the IRS (failure of which may trigger asset seizure back in the USA, which might be a problem if he bought a house for his parents).

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

dsfyu404ed 9y ago

If the exploit looks super obvious and you're not hearing about people using it that's a good indication that people are using it and smart enough to keep their mouths shut.

kamaal 9y ago

Its not just with fraud, its with anything that comes for free. Sometimes also called luck. The general idea is if you are lucky, you will be lucky enough all life. And the party will never end. Its only when it stops you realize that you could have saved up and moved on long back. You can't have the whole world.

martinko 9y ago

2 mil. really isn't all that much. He would blow it quite fast if he lived how you described.

lawless123 9y ago
Yeah you could live on that comfortably for the rest of your life, but not extravagantly.

jondubois 9y ago

Interesting how people here on HN tend to bash criminals because of their stupidity instead of focusing on their poor ethics. How society has changed. Sometimes it seems that the idea that "It's not a crime unless you get caught" has become mainstream. It doesn't seem to be a very solid foundation for a society. Hopefully this is just harmless fun discussing hypotheticals.

ZoomZoomZoom 9y ago
This is just automatic engaging of a problem-solving mindset, I believe.
_Codemonkeyism 9y ago
If there is a wide consensus on "poor ethics" here on HN, why comment?

_Codemonkeyism 9y ago

Cynic in me would point out that for most people in the US does not exist in any way.

artur_makly 9y ago

ironically John Macafee did the opposite and ran back to the US as a #1murder suspect and rapist : http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mcafee-documentary-gringo-belize-murder-allegations-2016-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mcafee-documentary-gring...