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It's depressing that you point to the animosity of communities that have been traditionally on the sour end of many transit projects and claim their reaction is

It's depressing that you point to the animosity of communities that have been traditionally on the sour end of many transit projects and claim their reaction is irrational. All you've done is eloquently explained why their irrationality might be understandable. Humans are, by and large, inherently irrational. That fact isn't depressing. It's simply true.

KirinDave 9y ago
> Humans are, by and large, inherently irrational. That fact isn't depressing. It's simply true. That's not the subject. You've suggested that this specific reaction is irrational. As I've pointed out, it's ENTIRELY rational to use available data to make a decision if the stakes are high and the duration of opportunity to counter it may be short. It may be sub-optimal and even self-harming in the total balance of accounting, but that is a distinct condition from rationality. You seem to be confusing these different concepts.
- FussyZeus 9y ago
  > It may be sub-optimal and even self-harming in the total balance of accounting, but that is a distinct condition from rationality. You seem to be confusing these different concepts. I agree. The initial reaction to getting a pipe jammed into your chest is to remove the pipe, even though I'm pretty sure every medical professional would tell you to leave it there, you don't in the heat of the moment understand why: you have a foreign entity in your body, and your instincts are telling you to remove it. It is an irrational and detrimental reaction but I'm willing to bet the vast majority of people would do it, or at least attempt to do it until someone who was not in fight or flight mode stopped them. Just because emotions are messy and not easily solved with logic and code does not make them irrelevant. We are not the fucking Borg and we likely won't be for an extremely long time, so discarding the emotional end of any argument just because you don't want to deal with the messy irrational reactions of human beings is stupid.
- zzalpha 9y ago
  As I've pointed out, it' ENTIRELY rational to use available data to make a decision if the stakes are high and the duration of opportunity to counter it may be short. Sure. And you're assuming that's what happened here. Based on how I've seen people behave, I'm assuming it's not. We can both have our opinions. Hell, we're probably both right to some degree. I will say, though, that when it comes to collective human behaviour, politics has taught me to be incredibly cynical... I've consistently been amazed by how willing people are to work against their own best interests in order to reinforce their personal and group identities. But the vandals in particular? I seriously doubt they put any real thought into the benefits of this bike network. They saw change, introduced from outside, that they see as a symbol of white gentrification (and even worse, it's those damned cyclists that everyone hates... Probably with man buns and bottles of IPA in their backpacks), and reacted.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    > Based on how I've seen people behave, I'm assuming it's not. It's interesting to me that you agree with my previous statements about using approximations to be rational, then engage in that exact process to judge these people, and then refuse to offer them the opportunity to do the same. I understand emotional tension around these issues tends to run hot. I can be so detached because I recently moved out of the city. But seriously, dude. This is a bit ridiculous.
    - zzalpha 9y ago
      It's interesting to me that you agree with my previous statements about using approximations to be rational, then engage in that exact process to judge these people, and then refuse to offer them the opportunity to do the same. Uhh, I'm not judging them at all. Where did you get that idea? As you say, I'm irrational. Everyone is irrational. Heck, your assumption that I'm somehow judging these people is irrational. :) All I'm saying is I believe these people are reacting emotionally. That's it. There's no judgement in that. Again, it's simply my view of the facts. And given bikes are being hung in trees, I think not an unreasonable one. And that fact changes how you solve the problem. Reasoning with someone who isn't thinking in terms of costs and benefits is pointless. You have to engage differently. So acknowledging that this is what is happening is the first step to moving ahead.

KirinDave 9y ago

> Humans are, by and large, inherently irrational. That fact isn't depressing. It's simply true. That's not the subject. You've suggested that this specific reaction is irrational. As I've pointed out, it's ENTIRELY rational to use available data to make a decision if the stakes are high and the duration of opportunity to counter it may be short. It may be sub-optimal and even self-harming in the total balance of accounting, but that is a distinct condition from rationality. You seem to be confusing these different concepts.

FussyZeus 9y ago
> It may be sub-optimal and even self-harming in the total balance of accounting, but that is a distinct condition from rationality. You seem to be confusing these different concepts. I agree. The initial reaction to getting a pipe jammed into your chest is to remove the pipe, even though I'm pretty sure every medical professional would tell you to leave it there, you don't in the heat of the moment understand why: you have a foreign entity in your body, and your instincts are telling you to remove it. It is an irrational and detrimental reaction but I'm willing to bet the vast majority of people would do it, or at least attempt to do it until someone who was not in fight or flight mode stopped them. Just because emotions are messy and not easily solved with logic and code does not make them irrelevant. We are not the fucking Borg and we likely won't be for an extremely long time, so discarding the emotional end of any argument just because you don't want to deal with the messy irrational reactions of human beings is stupid.
zzalpha 9y ago
As I've pointed out, it' ENTIRELY rational to use available data to make a decision if the stakes are high and the duration of opportunity to counter it may be short. Sure. And you're assuming that's what happened here. Based on how I've seen people behave, I'm assuming it's not. We can both have our opinions. Hell, we're probably both right to some degree. I will say, though, that when it comes to collective human behaviour, politics has taught me to be incredibly cynical... I've consistently been amazed by how willing people are to work against their own best interests in order to reinforce their personal and group identities. But the vandals in particular? I seriously doubt they put any real thought into the benefits of this bike network. They saw change, introduced from outside, that they see as a symbol of white gentrification (and even worse, it's those damned cyclists that everyone hates... Probably with man buns and bottles of IPA in their backpacks), and reacted.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > Based on how I've seen people behave, I'm assuming it's not. It's interesting to me that you agree with my previous statements about using approximations to be rational, then engage in that exact process to judge these people, and then refuse to offer them the opportunity to do the same. I understand emotional tension around these issues tends to run hot. I can be so detached because I recently moved out of the city. But seriously, dude. This is a bit ridiculous.
  - zzalpha 9y ago
    It's interesting to me that you agree with my previous statements about using approximations to be rational, then engage in that exact process to judge these people, and then refuse to offer them the opportunity to do the same. Uhh, I'm not judging them at all. Where did you get that idea? As you say, I'm irrational. Everyone is irrational. Heck, your assumption that I'm somehow judging these people is irrational. :) All I'm saying is I believe these people are reacting emotionally. That's it. There's no judgement in that. Again, it's simply my view of the facts. And given bikes are being hung in trees, I think not an unreasonable one. And that fact changes how you solve the problem. Reasoning with someone who isn't thinking in terms of costs and benefits is pointless. You have to engage differently. So acknowledging that this is what is happening is the first step to moving ahead.