3 ms·

Try heel striking without 10mm of padding under your foot. When people run barefoot, they naturally fore/mid strike.

zimpenfish 9y ago
I suspect you need an "eventually" before "naturally" there. You can't instantly transition from heel strike to fore/mid strike without causing a whole mess of problems. Altra (who are merely zero-drop shoes, not barefoot) recommend a gradual transitioning over at least 6 months.
- agumonkey 9y ago
  You mean shifting injuries from knees to heel tendons ? One thing barefoot runners showed me is the static bounce starting point. Your gesture should be similar to that of landing from small repeated vertical jumps. When you find a balance in how the weight is distributed, you start to go forward.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - overcast 9y ago
    No, take off your shoes, and run around the yard right now. Tell me how you strike your feet. Obviously if you've heel striked your entire life while running, you'll have to ease yourself into it. That's also not what I was responding to. Saying heel striking is OK, it is not. It's a bad habit formed by over padding sneakers.
    - zimpenfish 9y ago
      https://www.runresearchjunkie.com/barefootminimalism-running-and-heel-striking/ https://www.runresearchjunkie.com/barefootminimalism-running... suggests it's not necessarily that simple.
    - agumonkey 9y ago
      Since competition as a kid, decades ago I stopped using my heels. I just remember how cross country running shoes help you running properly... it's true that absorbing soles are probably a bad solution to a non problem.
      - bitexploder 9y ago
        It depends very specifically on what sort of problems you develop. It is theorized that when you do suffer a lower limb injury using orthotics changes your muscle activation pattern (moreso than changing your form), which helps alleviate the issue. The rate of orthotics fixing problems after a specific injury is pretty high so it is more than just mumbo jumbo. "70% of runners with lower limb injuries improve when they use orthotic devices (James et al. 1978; Bates et al. 1979, McKenzie et al. 1985; Gross et al. 1991)..." Noakes, lore of running. So clearly orthotics and what you put under your feet can have an impact and make things better (or worse, but probably better if someone knowledgeable about biomechanics can see your pronation and gait).
        agumonkey 9y ago
        Ironically I used some orthotics as a teen. My feet are half flat, some "podologist" gave me curved soles. Didn't work on me. I don't refute the idea; I probably just needed a more comprehensive solution for a prolongated time to make a difference.
    - bitexploder 9y ago
      This is blatantly unsupported by any evidence. If you want to run in most places people can easily run you have to wear shoes. There is no conclusive or even decent evidence that heel striking or non heel striking causes injuries. Barefoot running causes very different muscle activation patterns. It is much less efficient (biomechanically) requiring you to compensate very differently. There is one study barefoot purists like to trot out that they think means barefoot/forefoot striking decreases injuries: https://runblogger.com/2012/02/vivobarefoots-barefoot-is-best-campaign.html https://runblogger.com/2012/02/vivobarefoots-barefoot-is-bes... -- the study was also sub-elite or elite collegiate athletes. Other studies that I think are more relevant to a typical runner show very different results and the study is more credible: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26126256 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26126256 Find evidence that isn't anecdotes and is widely accepted and I will gladly change my mind. It is still an ongoing debate and the evidence in either direction is only moderate (in the direction of heel striking being fine, especially for folks running recreationally with a rather low load). Given the general lack of evidence it comes down to anecdotes and you can find those everywhere, people are crazy.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    You're assuming a heel striker automatically has knee problems. This isn't a given. Many of them have no problems at all.
    - bitexploder 9y ago
      Agreed. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26126256 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26126256 http://www.kinetic-revolution.com/dont-believe-the-heel-strike-hype/ http://www.kinetic-revolution.com/dont-believe-the-heel-stri... Also: Changing gait is very hard: https://runblogger.com/2011/11/just-quick-post-to-announce-that-my.html https://runblogger.com/2011/11/just-quick-post-to-announce-t... -- people revert when they get tired unless it is very deeply ingrained as a change. edit: My conclusion, ignore any running form purists or blow hards. Throw some shoes on. Go run. Conservatively and following the laws of training. If you get hurt you can fix it and it usually doesn't suck (stretching, less running for a while, strength training). If you don't get hurt, you were better off not overthinking it :)
bitexploder 9y ago
I do. It's fine. I have run 40 miles per week for months at a time training for ultra marathons. Anecdotes and all. If you want to prevent injuries, lift some heavy things to make your joints and ensure you don't have any weakness in your legs or posterior chain. Run with a high cadence. The truth is this, why runners get injured is varied and running form naturally improves if someone runs a lot and practices running drills that encourage new muscle activation patterns. Running a lot with no strength training can mean weaker muscles, so strength training is almost always prescribed as a preventative and as a fix to encourage better muscle activation patterns. Each persons biomechanical form is different and unique to them. Tinkering with what is natural to them seems ill advised at best given what we do know about injury rates. Running barefoot is less efficient and probably reduces injuries due to different muscle activation patterns (the leading theory about why some shoes can cause problems and others can fix them). It is thought that pronation isn't really significantly altered by shoes. In Noakes and Daniels, my favorite two authorities on running, you will find very little focus on running form as a key aspect of being a life long runner because it is something that developers naturally. Only when specific problems occur should you really diagnose and try to fix things. Most people can run a healthy amount without changing anything and wearing any old running shoes. When specific things occur specific fixes must be deployed and "fix all" advise (even like mine, run 180spm, or, don't heel strike) is just not helpful unless it actually addresses the specific cause of the problem. More often than not someone can keep their existing running form and something else is advised (stretching, strength conditioning, running speed drills to improve foot turnover and alter muscle activation, orthotics to activate muscles differently, etc. etc.).

I suspect you need an "eventually" before "naturally" there. You can't instantly transition from heel strike to fore/mid strike without causing a whole mess of problems. Altra (who are merely zero-drop shoes, not barefoot) recommend a gradual transitioning over at least 6 months.

agumonkey 9y ago
You mean shifting injuries from knees to heel tendons ? One thing barefoot runners showed me is the static bounce starting point. Your gesture should be similar to that of landing from small repeated vertical jumps. When you find a balance in how the weight is distributed, you start to go forward.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- overcast 9y ago
  No, take off your shoes, and run around the yard right now. Tell me how you strike your feet. Obviously if you've heel striked your entire life while running, you'll have to ease yourself into it. That's also not what I was responding to. Saying heel striking is OK, it is not. It's a bad habit formed by over padding sneakers.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    https://www.runresearchjunkie.com/barefootminimalism-running-and-heel-striking/ https://www.runresearchjunkie.com/barefootminimalism-running... suggests it's not necessarily that simple.
  - agumonkey 9y ago
    Since competition as a kid, decades ago I stopped using my heels. I just remember how cross country running shoes help you running properly... it's true that absorbing soles are probably a bad solution to a non problem.
    - bitexploder 9y ago
      It depends very specifically on what sort of problems you develop. It is theorized that when you do suffer a lower limb injury using orthotics changes your muscle activation pattern (moreso than changing your form), which helps alleviate the issue. The rate of orthotics fixing problems after a specific injury is pretty high so it is more than just mumbo jumbo. "70% of runners with lower limb injuries improve when they use orthotic devices (James et al. 1978; Bates et al. 1979, McKenzie et al. 1985; Gross et al. 1991)..." Noakes, lore of running. So clearly orthotics and what you put under your feet can have an impact and make things better (or worse, but probably better if someone knowledgeable about biomechanics can see your pronation and gait).
      - agumonkey 9y ago
        Ironically I used some orthotics as a teen. My feet are half flat, some "podologist" gave me curved soles. Didn't work on me. I don't refute the idea; I probably just needed a more comprehensive solution for a prolongated time to make a difference.
  - bitexploder 9y ago
    This is blatantly unsupported by any evidence. If you want to run in most places people can easily run you have to wear shoes. There is no conclusive or even decent evidence that heel striking or non heel striking causes injuries. Barefoot running causes very different muscle activation patterns. It is much less efficient (biomechanically) requiring you to compensate very differently. There is one study barefoot purists like to trot out that they think means barefoot/forefoot striking decreases injuries: https://runblogger.com/2012/02/vivobarefoots-barefoot-is-best-campaign.html https://runblogger.com/2012/02/vivobarefoots-barefoot-is-bes... -- the study was also sub-elite or elite collegiate athletes. Other studies that I think are more relevant to a typical runner show very different results and the study is more credible: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26126256 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26126256 Find evidence that isn't anecdotes and is widely accepted and I will gladly change my mind. It is still an ongoing debate and the evidence in either direction is only moderate (in the direction of heel striking being fine, especially for folks running recreationally with a rather low load). Given the general lack of evidence it comes down to anecdotes and you can find those everywhere, people are crazy.
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  You're assuming a heel striker automatically has knee problems. This isn't a given. Many of them have no problems at all.
  - bitexploder 9y ago
    Agreed. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26126256 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26126256 http://www.kinetic-revolution.com/dont-believe-the-heel-strike-hype/ http://www.kinetic-revolution.com/dont-believe-the-heel-stri... Also: Changing gait is very hard: https://runblogger.com/2011/11/just-quick-post-to-announce-that-my.html https://runblogger.com/2011/11/just-quick-post-to-announce-t... -- people revert when they get tired unless it is very deeply ingrained as a change. edit: My conclusion, ignore any running form purists or blow hards. Throw some shoes on. Go run. Conservatively and following the laws of training. If you get hurt you can fix it and it usually doesn't suck (stretching, less running for a while, strength training). If you don't get hurt, you were better off not overthinking it :)

bitexploder 9y ago

I do. It's fine. I have run 40 miles per week for months at a time training for ultra marathons. Anecdotes and all. If you want to prevent injuries, lift some heavy things to make your joints and ensure you don't have any weakness in your legs or posterior chain. Run with a high cadence. The truth is this, why runners get injured is varied and running form naturally improves if someone runs a lot and practices running drills that encourage new muscle activation patterns. Running a lot with no strength training can mean weaker muscles, so strength training is almost always prescribed as a preventative and as a fix to encourage better muscle activation patterns. Each persons biomechanical form is different and unique to them. Tinkering with what is natural to them seems ill advised at best given what we do know about injury rates. Running barefoot is less efficient and probably reduces injuries due to different muscle activation patterns (the leading theory about why some shoes can cause problems and others can fix them). It is thought that pronation isn't really significantly altered by shoes. In Noakes and Daniels, my favorite two authorities on running, you will find very little focus on running form as a key aspect of being a life long runner because it is something that developers naturally. Only when specific problems occur should you really diagnose and try to fix things. Most people can run a healthy amount without changing anything and wearing any old running shoes. When specific things occur specific fixes must be deployed and "fix all" advise (even like mine, run 180spm, or, don't heel strike) is just not helpful unless it actually addresses the specific cause of the problem. More often than not someone can keep their existing running form and something else is advised (stretching, strength conditioning, running speed drills to improve foot turnover and alter muscle activation, orthotics to activate muscles differently, etc. etc.).