4 ms·

> “Sometimes my job is to be an asshole,” he explained... It's so difficult to give frank, negative feedback without coming across as an asshole but, sometimes

> “Sometimes my job is to be an asshole,” he explained... It's so difficult to give frank, negative feedback without coming across as an asshole but, sometimes, it's necessary. "Constructive" feedback only goes so far. Sometimes people need to be told that their work is bad, so that they can improve. Accepting mediocrity in order to avoid hurting someone's feelings is doing them a disservice in the long run.

Amygaz 9y ago
Assholes don't write a 10-pages letter to help you do your job. They especially do not help you do your job. Scott is unlikely to be an asshole. His, was a friendly comment. From what the author wrote, the comments allowed him to ponder and make the manuscript better. So constructive criticism does work.
- caseysoftware 9y ago
  Yes, this is key. "Assholes" don't give constructive feedback and try to make things better. They drop "witty" one-liners, hot takes, and move along to posture for a new audience or ruin someone else's day. Of course, delivering bad news is hard. Most people are awful at it. Most people don't really want it. They want a pat on the head and get told their work is near-perfect. I advise on a few startups and mentor at Techstars Austin. When a company asks me to watch their pitch, I ask them: "Do you want honest feedback no matter what or just a thumbs up? I'm happy to do the first but I won't do the second." The relationships that come through honest, constructive collaboration are the best part of mentoring.
- scandox 9y ago
  Yes but it is damn hard to tell someone that a book has fundamental flaws. A big part of editorial is also emotional support and faith. So the editor must have dug very deep to be able to actually tell him you have to go back to the foundations. It would have been much much easier to say "it needs this or that series of changes" hoping it would be enough and avoid the more emotionally difficult task of saying "this does not work at all in its current form". So it may help to have an inner asshole when doing this.
  - woodandsteel 9y ago
    Yes, it is hard to decide to give strong negative feedback. But an editor will generally do it anyway, because they are being paid by the publisher, and so their job is to make the book a success.
JoshTriplett 9y ago
You can constructively tell someone their work is not up to the standard required, and not accept mediocrity. You don't have to be rude or uncivil to do that.
- DamnYuppie 9y ago
  Yes and many times the recipients of that message do not seem to either internalize it or act upon it. There seems to be a need to for continual escalation of feedback until it is processed. Often times this processing doesn't occur until they are uncomfortable, or as in the case of family, tired of listening to you!
  - JoshTriplett 9y ago
    > Yes and many times the recipients of that message do not seem to either internalize it or act upon it. Then phrase it another way until they do, or otherwise find a way to communicate it that makes the issue clear. That's still not a reason to become hostile or toxic, or berate or denigrate someone. And bringing things back to the article we're commenting on, here: it doesn't actually look like that happened at any point here. Despite how the person in question self-described themselves, it doesn't seem to me that they actually behaved in a problematic way. It's perfectly reasonable to offer precise, to-the-point, clear criticism. None of that requires being rude, uncivil, or unconstructive. The comment I was replying to said '"Constructive" feedback only goes so far.'. I emphatically disagree; the article talks about a ten-page letter full of what sounds like highly constructive feedback.
- efm 9y ago
  To do that, you must know what the standard required is.
- woodandsteel 9y ago
  Right. The key thing is to make it clear that you think the person is capable of doing better. Harsh, negative feedback like we see on the the internet all the time, attacks the person, not just their view. The message is "you are an idiot," rather than, "I think you are wrong on this, but smart enough to correct your view once you hear my argument"
rtpg 9y ago
I get your point here. It's important not to hold back and to be "honest". Being nice doesn't make the work better. I have met some people who take this as a license to not think as hard about how to formulate their feedback. So it comes out as harsh and personal, even if the kernel of feedback is valuable. Almost every "angry" feedback I've seen on the internet could have been rewritten to simply be good feedback. If you have the time to write and rewrite feedback, you can probably clean up arguments much faster. Taking a chill pill if you will. This is harder to do in face-to-face conversations, though.

Amygaz 9y ago

Assholes don't write a 10-pages letter to help you do your job. They especially do not help you do your job. Scott is unlikely to be an asshole. His, was a friendly comment. From what the author wrote, the comments allowed him to ponder and make the manuscript better. So constructive criticism does work.

caseysoftware 9y ago
Yes, this is key. "Assholes" don't give constructive feedback and try to make things better. They drop "witty" one-liners, hot takes, and move along to posture for a new audience or ruin someone else's day. Of course, delivering bad news is hard. Most people are awful at it. Most people don't really want it. They want a pat on the head and get told their work is near-perfect. I advise on a few startups and mentor at Techstars Austin. When a company asks me to watch their pitch, I ask them: "Do you want honest feedback no matter what or just a thumbs up? I'm happy to do the first but I won't do the second." The relationships that come through honest, constructive collaboration are the best part of mentoring.
scandox 9y ago
Yes but it is damn hard to tell someone that a book has fundamental flaws. A big part of editorial is also emotional support and faith. So the editor must have dug very deep to be able to actually tell him you have to go back to the foundations. It would have been much much easier to say "it needs this or that series of changes" hoping it would be enough and avoid the more emotionally difficult task of saying "this does not work at all in its current form". So it may help to have an inner asshole when doing this.
- woodandsteel 9y ago
  Yes, it is hard to decide to give strong negative feedback. But an editor will generally do it anyway, because they are being paid by the publisher, and so their job is to make the book a success.

JoshTriplett 9y ago

You can constructively tell someone their work is not up to the standard required, and not accept mediocrity. You don't have to be rude or uncivil to do that.

DamnYuppie 9y ago
Yes and many times the recipients of that message do not seem to either internalize it or act upon it. There seems to be a need to for continual escalation of feedback until it is processed. Often times this processing doesn't occur until they are uncomfortable, or as in the case of family, tired of listening to you!
- JoshTriplett 9y ago
  > Yes and many times the recipients of that message do not seem to either internalize it or act upon it. Then phrase it another way until they do, or otherwise find a way to communicate it that makes the issue clear. That's still not a reason to become hostile or toxic, or berate or denigrate someone. And bringing things back to the article we're commenting on, here: it doesn't actually look like that happened at any point here. Despite how the person in question self-described themselves, it doesn't seem to me that they actually behaved in a problematic way. It's perfectly reasonable to offer precise, to-the-point, clear criticism. None of that requires being rude, uncivil, or unconstructive. The comment I was replying to said '"Constructive" feedback only goes so far.'. I emphatically disagree; the article talks about a ten-page letter full of what sounds like highly constructive feedback.
efm 9y ago
To do that, you must know what the standard required is.
woodandsteel 9y ago
Right. The key thing is to make it clear that you think the person is capable of doing better. Harsh, negative feedback like we see on the the internet all the time, attacks the person, not just their view. The message is "you are an idiot," rather than, "I think you are wrong on this, but smart enough to correct your view once you hear my argument"

rtpg 9y ago

I get your point here. It's important not to hold back and to be "honest". Being nice doesn't make the work better. I have met some people who take this as a license to not think as hard about how to formulate their feedback. So it comes out as harsh and personal, even if the kernel of feedback is valuable. Almost every "angry" feedback I've seen on the internet could have been rewritten to simply be good feedback. If you have the time to write and rewrite feedback, you can probably clean up arguments much faster. Taking a chill pill if you will. This is harder to do in face-to-face conversations, though.