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Reasons for fork: "Repeated ToC violations by an authority figure went unaddressed." https://twitter.com/alicegoldfuss/status/900109726872068096 https://twitt

Reasons for fork: "Repeated ToC violations by an authority figure went unaddressed." https://twitter.com/alicegoldfuss/status/900109726872068096 https://twitter.com/alicegoldfuss/status/900109726872068096 Not sure what ToC is, but the alleged violations appear to be of Code of Conduct. Alleged violations are described here: https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212 https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212 Most links are private, but here are the public ones: https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887790865766268928 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887790865766268928 https://twitter.com/captainsafia/status/887782785221615618 https://twitter.com/captainsafia/status/887782785221615618 https://twitter.com/nodebotanist/status/887724138516951049 https://twitter.com/nodebotanist/status/887724138516951049

kowdermeister 9y ago
Who are they talking about?
- akras14 9y ago
  Rod Vagg https://twitter.com/rvagg https://twitter.com/rvagg https://github.com/rvagg https://github.com/rvagg
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
aaron-lebo 9y ago
Going through those links it's still not obvious what's happening. @rvagg has some kind of leadership position, has some strong opinions about codes of conduct (not the only one), and they're forking the project for that? What?
- akras14 9y ago
  It is unclear. Seemed like he has repeatedly used a language that some community members found offensive. His stance against Code of Conduct, as evident by this Tweet: https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 and follow up comments were considered inappropriate by some. Even more details here: https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 """ The TSC members were not able to reach a natural consensus on the steps forward so a vote was called on two specific questions: (A) Should Rod be removed from the TSC: Yes or No (B) Should Rod be asked to voluntarily resign from the TSC: Yes or No There are 13 members of the TSC. 10 members voted, two abstained, and Rod did not participate. The vote came down 60% against removing Rod from the TSC and 60% against asking Rod to voluntarily resign. """
  - nodesocket 9y ago
    They had a vote to remove him, it failed. Move on!
    - drinchev 9y ago
      Precisely. I'm just wondering what would've happened if Rod was forced to resign and the other <50% voters who voted against it. Maybe a fork of NodeJS, but this time from Rod's fellows?
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      People are free to leave a community they feel unwelcome in. If it's an open source software project, they are also free to fork the software and make their own project around it. While, obviously, two parallel projects divided by interpersonal issues isn't ideal and likely duplicates efforts, it's better than losing the work of either of the factions, so, given the existence of the social issues, it's quite possibly the best acheivable outcome.
  - curtisblaine 9y ago
    Rod: "C'mon mate, did you even read it? This is worthy of discussion, not simplistic dismissal". It doesn't seem a heated or offensive discussion to me. He just posted an article and was willing to discuss it with the community.
leipert 9y ago
Well at least they didn't delete the code of conduct: https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
jondubois 9y ago
I don't see anything wrong with the tweets. I don't think Rod is a bad person, he's been involved with Node.js for years. Try working on an open source project for 5 years and then we can talk about altruism.
- curtisblaine 9y ago
  I don't think there's anything wrong with the tweets too. And it seems the Node Technical Steering Committee had similar thoughts, since they rejected the proposal of expelling Rod.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    The 60%/40% split on both proposed sanctions indicates that the TSC had no simple unified view of the type you infer.
    - jondubois 9y ago
      Some people think and others just react, it's good to know that the majority of people on the Node.js technical committee are thinkers.
      - ens 9y ago
        Wow, that's an incredibly rude and narrow-minded comment.
        curtisblaine 9y ago
        Why "rude"?
        jhasse 9y ago
        It's rude to suggest that the Yes-voters are non-thinkers.
- 9y ago
orless 9y ago
To be honest, for those not (already) involved in this whole debate, it is very difficult to make an informed opinion here. What I see is a screenshot of a GitHub issue (https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212 https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212) which was already redacted and does no longer provide any links. Tweet in support of "anti-CoC article" is there (https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841) but that alone would not assert a "harmful person" in my opinion. I understand the fork is not on political reasons which may be very well grounded. But I don't think they are not explained to the public well enough. There must be a clear answer to "Why should I care?" but there is not. This will probably lead to ignorance and dismissal.
- stillkicking 9y ago
  That "anti-COC" article is as anti-COC as James Damore's memo was anti-diversity. What it does is highlight how speech codes can be used by the socially hyperfluent to bully and dominate the less fluent, by placing an unreasonable burden on a speaker to have 100% prediction accuracy of every potential negative response. http://quillette.com/2017/07/18/neurodiversity-case-free-speech/ http://quillette.com/2017/07/18/neurodiversity-case-free-spe... That SJWs call it a strawman is just another example of how they always refuse to follow their own rules of empathy and inclusion.
  - comzeradd 9y ago
    James Damore's memo was anti-diversity.
    - jrs95 9y ago
      Maybe under diversity's new Orwellian definition
    - P0T8-TO3 9y ago
      There's a huge difference between anti-diversity, and anti-forced-diversity for the sake of diversity. I don't see why this is so complicated, other than perhaps it seems SJW types can't fathom the idea that hiring managers are actually capable of talking to a person, getting to know them, and then capable of deciding whether or not they're qualified for the job without checking off a list of what should be considered irrelevant qualifiers.... Skin color, penis girth, propensity for future development of diabeetus, etc. Also, it's quite clear that you didn't read the memo at all. Maybe the Buzzfeed condensed op-ed on it. Did he have some inflammatory opinions that maybe aren't correct? Hell yeah, but they're his opinions, he said a lot of other stuff that was entirely poignant, relevant, and accurate. This yes/no true/false BS has got to stop. You don't get to hone in on somebody's one solitary opinion that might open up conversation to a "non-safe space", cry misogynist/racist/rapist, and then auto-dismiss the rest of their arguments like you've discovered some sort of irl Konami Konversation Kode. That's terribad debating and awful human communication. James Demore's firing really only proves that he was mostly right.

kowdermeister 9y ago

Who are they talking about?

akras14 9y ago
Rod Vagg https://twitter.com/rvagg https://twitter.com/rvagg https://github.com/rvagg https://github.com/rvagg
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

aaron-lebo 9y ago

Going through those links it's still not obvious what's happening. @rvagg has some kind of leadership position, has some strong opinions about codes of conduct (not the only one), and they're forking the project for that? What?

akras14 9y ago
It is unclear. Seemed like he has repeatedly used a language that some community members found offensive. His stance against Code of Conduct, as evident by this Tweet: https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 and follow up comments were considered inappropriate by some. Even more details here: https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 """ The TSC members were not able to reach a natural consensus on the steps forward so a vote was called on two specific questions: (A) Should Rod be removed from the TSC: Yes or No (B) Should Rod be asked to voluntarily resign from the TSC: Yes or No There are 13 members of the TSC. 10 members voted, two abstained, and Rod did not participate. The vote came down 60% against removing Rod from the TSC and 60% against asking Rod to voluntarily resign. """
- nodesocket 9y ago
  They had a vote to remove him, it failed. Move on!
  - drinchev 9y ago
    Precisely. I'm just wondering what would've happened if Rod was forced to resign and the other <50% voters who voted against it. Maybe a fork of NodeJS, but this time from Rod's fellows?
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    People are free to leave a community they feel unwelcome in. If it's an open source software project, they are also free to fork the software and make their own project around it. While, obviously, two parallel projects divided by interpersonal issues isn't ideal and likely duplicates efforts, it's better than losing the work of either of the factions, so, given the existence of the social issues, it's quite possibly the best acheivable outcome.
- curtisblaine 9y ago
  Rod: "C'mon mate, did you even read it? This is worthy of discussion, not simplistic dismissal". It doesn't seem a heated or offensive discussion to me. He just posted an article and was willing to discuss it with the community.

leipert 9y ago

Well at least they didn't delete the code of conduct: https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md https://github.com/ayojs/ayo/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md

jondubois 9y ago

I don't see anything wrong with the tweets. I don't think Rod is a bad person, he's been involved with Node.js for years. Try working on an open source project for 5 years and then we can talk about altruism.

curtisblaine 9y ago
I don't think there's anything wrong with the tweets too. And it seems the Node Technical Steering Committee had similar thoughts, since they rejected the proposal of expelling Rod.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  The 60%/40% split on both proposed sanctions indicates that the TSC had no simple unified view of the type you infer.
  - jondubois 9y ago
    Some people think and others just react, it's good to know that the majority of people on the Node.js technical committee are thinkers.
    - ens 9y ago
      Wow, that's an incredibly rude and narrow-minded comment.
      - curtisblaine 9y ago
        Why "rude"?
        jhasse 9y ago
        It's rude to suggest that the Yes-voters are non-thinkers.
9y ago

orless 9y ago

To be honest, for those not (already) involved in this whole debate, it is very difficult to make an informed opinion here. What I see is a screenshot of a GitHub issue (https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212 https://twitter.com/ohhoe/status/899748838302302212) which was already redacted and does no longer provide any links. Tweet in support of "anti-CoC article" is there (https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841 https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887652116524707841) but that alone would not assert a "harmful person" in my opinion. I understand the fork is not on political reasons which may be very well grounded. But I don't think they are not explained to the public well enough. There must be a clear answer to "Why should I care?" but there is not. This will probably lead to ignorance and dismissal.

stillkicking 9y ago
That "anti-COC" article is as anti-COC as James Damore's memo was anti-diversity. What it does is highlight how speech codes can be used by the socially hyperfluent to bully and dominate the less fluent, by placing an unreasonable burden on a speaker to have 100% prediction accuracy of every potential negative response. http://quillette.com/2017/07/18/neurodiversity-case-free-speech/ http://quillette.com/2017/07/18/neurodiversity-case-free-spe... That SJWs call it a strawman is just another example of how they always refuse to follow their own rules of empathy and inclusion.
- comzeradd 9y ago
  James Damore's memo was anti-diversity.
  - jrs95 9y ago
    Maybe under diversity's new Orwellian definition
  - P0T8-TO3 9y ago
    There's a huge difference between anti-diversity, and anti-forced-diversity for the sake of diversity. I don't see why this is so complicated, other than perhaps it seems SJW types can't fathom the idea that hiring managers are actually capable of talking to a person, getting to know them, and then capable of deciding whether or not they're qualified for the job without checking off a list of what should be considered irrelevant qualifiers.... Skin color, penis girth, propensity for future development of diabeetus, etc. Also, it's quite clear that you didn't read the memo at all. Maybe the Buzzfeed condensed op-ed on it. Did he have some inflammatory opinions that maybe aren't correct? Hell yeah, but they're his opinions, he said a lot of other stuff that was entirely poignant, relevant, and accurate. This yes/no true/false BS has got to stop. You don't get to hone in on somebody's one solitary opinion that might open up conversation to a "non-safe space", cry misogynist/racist/rapist, and then auto-dismiss the rest of their arguments like you've discovered some sort of irl Konami Konversation Kode. That's terribad debating and awful human communication. James Demore's firing really only proves that he was mostly right.