3 ms·

Unpopular ideas about social norms

32 points by imartin2k 9y ago

steveeq1 9y ago
How about: Blacks contribute over 50% of violent crimes, homicides and rapes. It is ok to consider dealing with ghetto black types as a "high risk activity"
- steveeq1 9y ago
  Why the downvotes? Not saying "it is true" or "we should follow this", it fits the article as "an unpopular idea about social norms that might be true".
  - tree_of_item 9y ago
    Why is my unpopular idea being downvoted?
    - wutbrodo 9y ago
      That's not an unreasonable question, when you consider that most platforms (HN included, if I'm not mistaken) are pretty clear that the etiquette is that the downvote button isn't a "disagree" button.
      - revicon 9y ago
        Is the opposite also true? Is the upvote button not an "I agree" button? If it is, then the opposite is also true. Otherwise there really isn't a point to the vote buttons.
      - rhn_mk1 9y ago
        This part of the etiquette is obviously not uniformly respected. HN is still better at this than sites like reddit, but something tells me it's against human nature to upvote things we don't agree with - no matter how relevant they are.
        lkesteloot 9y ago
        > against human nature to upvote things we don't agree with In this case you don't have to agree with the statement, only agree that it's unpopular. Maybe they're disagreeing with the facts in the statement's premise? Then they should say so, I think.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
Areading314 9y ago
I think its really cute that an attempt was made to cite blog articles as references though, good job.
- theWatcher37 9y ago
  1. Create culture where anyone who steps outside the political or moral norm is fired/career limited. 2. Sneer about no "professional sources" for positions, since few people value ideas over employment/tenure. Only people with nothing to lose publically air those opinions, those with things to lose keep them to themselves. 3. Imply that anyone who thinks in the non-approved way must be like those people/undesirables with nothing to lose, despite the silent ones having a lot to lose. You can say this is all tinfoil, but my engineering ethics professor told the entire class he's had to make choices between "speaking truth to power" and his career and that in the interest of full disclosure he chose his career + funding. 250+ people in that room at the time.
NhanH 9y ago
I suspect that some of the ideas are just perceived to be unpopular, as opposed to be actually unpopular. People might like the idea but is afraid to say it out loud
- lkesteloot 9y ago
  I would love to see a survey where people are asked both "how much do you agree" and "how likely are you to say so publicly". Given enough questions, it'd also be interesting to find out if the Left or the Right generally feels more suppressed. (I'm obsessed with the possibility that Clinton lost because the Left pressured people to deny that they supported Trump.)
  - jcahill 9y ago
    That wouldn't work like you're hoping. You're assuming a (representative) respondent pool that's all of these: 1. capable of switching off preference falsification for a survey 2. introspectively active (and accurately so) over a long enough period to notice that they behave differentially in public and private contexts 3. interested in exposing this degree of candor for a survey, i.e. motivated to "show the researchers" (show themselves, really) their belly after collapsing across all the reasons they'd rather not. Humans are primitive. Questionnaires have to be designed around that.
- steveeq1 9y ago
  Such as racism. I just made a "racist" posting that fit the theme of the article, and it got downvoted.
  - lkesteloot 9y ago
    Yeah, the items on her list aren't that unpopular. Your item isn't on her list, or anything like it. Even an article listing unpopular opinions isn't going to dare list actually unpopular opinions.
    - cholantesh 9y ago
ruytlm 9y ago
Thoroughly agree that we should both encourage and train people to think more philosophically about societal questions and social norms - even if the outcome is just to say 'nope, I think the social norm is fine as is'. One of the main reasons for this in my opinion is it drives empathy and understanding; by learning to genuinely consider an argument from an opposing viewpoint, one learns how another sees the world. On a personal level, I've found it's been one of the most enduring and valuable skills from an undergrad degree in philosophy; it's much harder to hate someone, or even get annoyed or frustrated with them, when you're able to understand them.

32 points by imartin2k 9y ago

How about: Blacks contribute over 50% of violent crimes, homicides and rapes. It is ok to consider dealing with ghetto black types as a "high risk activity"

steveeq1 9y ago
Why the downvotes? Not saying "it is true" or "we should follow this", it fits the article as "an unpopular idea about social norms that might be true".
- tree_of_item 9y ago
  Why is my unpopular idea being downvoted?
  - wutbrodo 9y ago
    That's not an unreasonable question, when you consider that most platforms (HN included, if I'm not mistaken) are pretty clear that the etiquette is that the downvote button isn't a "disagree" button.
    - revicon 9y ago
      Is the opposite also true? Is the upvote button not an "I agree" button? If it is, then the opposite is also true. Otherwise there really isn't a point to the vote buttons.
    - rhn_mk1 9y ago
      This part of the etiquette is obviously not uniformly respected. HN is still better at this than sites like reddit, but something tells me it's against human nature to upvote things we don't agree with - no matter how relevant they are.
      - lkesteloot 9y ago
        > against human nature to upvote things we don't agree with In this case you don't have to agree with the statement, only agree that it's unpopular. Maybe they're disagreeing with the facts in the statement's premise? Then they should say so, I think.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

Areading314 9y ago

I think its really cute that an attempt was made to cite blog articles as references though, good job.

theWatcher37 9y ago
1. Create culture where anyone who steps outside the political or moral norm is fired/career limited. 2. Sneer about no "professional sources" for positions, since few people value ideas over employment/tenure. Only people with nothing to lose publically air those opinions, those with things to lose keep them to themselves. 3. Imply that anyone who thinks in the non-approved way must be like those people/undesirables with nothing to lose, despite the silent ones having a lot to lose. You can say this is all tinfoil, but my engineering ethics professor told the entire class he's had to make choices between "speaking truth to power" and his career and that in the interest of full disclosure he chose his career + funding. 250+ people in that room at the time.

NhanH 9y ago

I suspect that some of the ideas are just perceived to be unpopular, as opposed to be actually unpopular. People might like the idea but is afraid to say it out loud

lkesteloot 9y ago
I would love to see a survey where people are asked both "how much do you agree" and "how likely are you to say so publicly". Given enough questions, it'd also be interesting to find out if the Left or the Right generally feels more suppressed. (I'm obsessed with the possibility that Clinton lost because the Left pressured people to deny that they supported Trump.)
- jcahill 9y ago
  That wouldn't work like you're hoping. You're assuming a (representative) respondent pool that's all of these: 1. capable of switching off preference falsification for a survey 2. introspectively active (and accurately so) over a long enough period to notice that they behave differentially in public and private contexts 3. interested in exposing this degree of candor for a survey, i.e. motivated to "show the researchers" (show themselves, really) their belly after collapsing across all the reasons they'd rather not. Humans are primitive. Questionnaires have to be designed around that.
steveeq1 9y ago
Such as racism. I just made a "racist" posting that fit the theme of the article, and it got downvoted.
- lkesteloot 9y ago
  Yeah, the items on her list aren't that unpopular. Your item isn't on her list, or anything like it. Even an article listing unpopular opinions isn't going to dare list actually unpopular opinions.
  - cholantesh 9y ago

ruytlm 9y ago

Thoroughly agree that we should both encourage and train people to think more philosophically about societal questions and social norms - even if the outcome is just to say 'nope, I think the social norm is fine as is'. One of the main reasons for this in my opinion is it drives empathy and understanding; by learning to genuinely consider an argument from an opposing viewpoint, one learns how another sees the world. On a personal level, I've found it's been one of the most enduring and valuable skills from an undergrad degree in philosophy; it's much harder to hate someone, or even get annoyed or frustrated with them, when you're able to understand them.