6 ms·

The government already uses these devices. First, there's the ever-increasing use of license plate readers on patrol cars. These have spawned all over the place

The government already uses these devices. First, there's the ever-increasing use of license plate readers on patrol cars. These have spawned all over the place, not just on the cruisers, but also fixed points. Second, if you've ever driven on the Dulles Access Road from DC to Dulles Airport, sensors pickup the bluetooth ID of your tire pressure monitor, and other SIGINT/MASINT details. More cities are using SIGINT/MASINT technologies to gather all of that data. I can't tell you how I know this, but drive just about anywhere within 20 miles of DC and everything about you that is possible is processed, cataloged, cross-references, and stored.

subway 9y ago
TPM data usually isn't Bluetooth. It's usually an entirely different set of insecure protocols on either 433 or 315mhz.
turc1656 9y ago
I had never heard of anything like this! Thank you very much for this information. Luckily for me I drive an old car (definitely pre-bluetooth for sure) so that part wouldn't apply to me, but the increasing use of plate readers applies to everyone, everywhere.
- Overtonwindow 9y ago
  There's an old book you might find interesting called "No Place to Hide" by Robert O'Harrow. If you do read it, try to keep in mind that it was written in 2004, and then consider how much innovation is likely to have taken place since then.
- joering2 9y ago
  It doesn't matter what you drive. I cannot tell you where I know this from, but the newest top secret satellites launched recently from Florida will cover the whole US terrain with infrared scanners. Now, given every person has a different size of veins running under their skin in slightly different ways, there are no two people with the same configuration of blood circulation system. So unless you are wearing metal armor 24/7, you are being tracked and cataloged of when and how long you been. So please - update your tires to let your car know and to notify you when your pressure is low. It might safe your life!
  - kaybe 9y ago
    There is a physical limit on the possible resolution. From that alone I call bullshit on your claim. Do you have hard evidence?
    - pc86 9y ago
      Check the comment history - I'm willing to bet someone has some pretty severe mental health issues.
    - joering2 9y ago
      I'm sorry but I don't. But also I cannot prove that NSA is listening on your phone conversations. Or anyone else in that matter.
    - joering2 9y ago
      pc86: would you really bet, or you are just bullshitting me? We could definitely drive up to Las Vegas and make a bonding, lawful bet. But I need to know how much $ you have on your mind, so I'm not wasting my time here. I assume "mental check" would be done by physician selected by you. But as long as she/he has expertise in the field and is licensed in the USA, I'm fine with that.
    - irq 9y ago
      You are correct, as the size of infrared waves is much too big to resolve the same level of detail that the smaller waves of visible light can. But even beyond that, water vapor is opaque to most IR frequencies. So a cloudy day would be enough to render this system useless. 100% bullshit imho.
coredog64 9y ago
> sensors pickup the bluetooth ID of your tire pressure monitor AFAIK, TPMS systems are all proprietary and use much simpler protocols than BT. https://github.com/jboone/tpms https://github.com/jboone/tpms
- cptskippy 9y ago
  You're not wrong but there are aftermarket direct TPMS that utilize Bluetooth to alert an App on your phone. These aren't very common and it's far more likely that someone is just tracking unique Bluetooth devices and not specifically targeting this very uncommon application of it. Loosely related... There are two types if TPMS, direct and indirect. Direct TMPS use a battery powered sensor on either side of the valve stem to monitor tire pressure and transmit it wirelessly to the car's computer. They're very precise but rely on an expensive battery powered sensor on the valve stem, because of this they are less reliable, prone to failure, damage and tamper. You can identify direct TPMS by the green valve stem caps on a car. Indirect monitoring leverages the tire speed sensor of the ABS or ESC systems to monitor drag induced by a tire with low pressure, it's not precise but it's accurate and far more reliable. And quite clever IMO. The NHTSA instituted rule 126 requiring ESC on most vehicles, since TPMS and ABS are subsets of technology necessary for ESC, you should see all three features offered on most new cars today.
  - gridscomputing 9y ago
    umm. green valve stem caps have nothing to do with TPMS. It's used by various places that fill tires with Nitrogen instead of ambient air.
    - cptskippy 9y ago
      gah... you're right.
  - Overtonwindow 9y ago
    Forgive me, both with oredog64, I was told it was the bluetooth tire pressure sensors. I am not familiar with the other systems.
gwern 9y ago
There are also the commercial companies which run vans with cameras everywhere to systematically regularly record license plates/locations; this is then sold to advertisers, hedge funds, skiptracers, PIs etc.
Animats 9y ago
Snooping on tire pressure monitors has been demonstrated.[1][2] Range is about 10m with a simple antenna, 40m with a good directional one. Each tire sensor has a permanent 32-bit ID. Tire sensors only emit about once every 60-90 seconds (faster if the tire pressure is low), and only when the vehicle is moving (so the battery isn't drained while the car is parked.) Some can be triggered to transmit by an external LF signal, and this is done at vehicle start-up to get an initial tire check. That mechanism, though, is manufacturer-specific. As a surveillance system, this has only modest potential. It would be useful to pair this with license plate readers, and notice cars whose license plate/tire ID relationships have changed. It's probably more useful for taking inventory at car rental lots and finding abandoned/overtime cars in big parking lots. There might be commercial potential in this. Anybody with a big fleet could use something that checks their vehicles as they go in and out. [1] http://www.winlab.rutgers.edu/~Gruteser/papers/xu_tpms10.pdf http://www.winlab.rutgers.edu/~Gruteser/papers/xu_tpms10.pdf [2] http://elib.dlr.de/71397/1/VP_TS_NearctisTPMS_110607.pdf http://elib.dlr.de/71397/1/VP_TS_NearctisTPMS_110607.pdf
- Romanulus 9y ago
  Honest question to your statement: "It would be useful to pair this with license plate readers, and notice cars whose license plate/tire ID relationships have changed." How/Why?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway76543 9y ago
    Because they generally shouldn't change, unless someone is illegally swapping plates.
    - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
      I see you have new tires there citizen. Your papers please.
Justin_K 9y ago
Whether or not the gov uses these is irrelevant. With your logic, how about I put a camera on your house and snap photos of everybody that goes in an out of the door? Is that OK since the government could already do that if they wanted? Then what if I take these images and post them online with your name and address? It's all public information and data captured outside of your house. It should then be fine for me to take this public data and sell it to an aggregator, say Facebook and Amazon, right? Where do you draw the line?

subway 9y ago

TPM data usually isn't Bluetooth. It's usually an entirely different set of insecure protocols on either 433 or 315mhz.

turc1656 9y ago

I had never heard of anything like this! Thank you very much for this information. Luckily for me I drive an old car (definitely pre-bluetooth for sure) so that part wouldn't apply to me, but the increasing use of plate readers applies to everyone, everywhere.

Overtonwindow 9y ago
There's an old book you might find interesting called "No Place to Hide" by Robert O'Harrow. If you do read it, try to keep in mind that it was written in 2004, and then consider how much innovation is likely to have taken place since then.
joering2 9y ago
It doesn't matter what you drive. I cannot tell you where I know this from, but the newest top secret satellites launched recently from Florida will cover the whole US terrain with infrared scanners. Now, given every person has a different size of veins running under their skin in slightly different ways, there are no two people with the same configuration of blood circulation system. So unless you are wearing metal armor 24/7, you are being tracked and cataloged of when and how long you been. So please - update your tires to let your car know and to notify you when your pressure is low. It might safe your life!
- kaybe 9y ago
  There is a physical limit on the possible resolution. From that alone I call bullshit on your claim. Do you have hard evidence?
  - pc86 9y ago
    Check the comment history - I'm willing to bet someone has some pretty severe mental health issues.
  - joering2 9y ago
    I'm sorry but I don't. But also I cannot prove that NSA is listening on your phone conversations. Or anyone else in that matter.
  - joering2 9y ago
    pc86: would you really bet, or you are just bullshitting me? We could definitely drive up to Las Vegas and make a bonding, lawful bet. But I need to know how much $ you have on your mind, so I'm not wasting my time here. I assume "mental check" would be done by physician selected by you. But as long as she/he has expertise in the field and is licensed in the USA, I'm fine with that.
  - irq 9y ago
    You are correct, as the size of infrared waves is much too big to resolve the same level of detail that the smaller waves of visible light can. But even beyond that, water vapor is opaque to most IR frequencies. So a cloudy day would be enough to render this system useless. 100% bullshit imho.

coredog64 9y ago

> sensors pickup the bluetooth ID of your tire pressure monitor AFAIK, TPMS systems are all proprietary and use much simpler protocols than BT. https://github.com/jboone/tpms https://github.com/jboone/tpms

cptskippy 9y ago
You're not wrong but there are aftermarket direct TPMS that utilize Bluetooth to alert an App on your phone. These aren't very common and it's far more likely that someone is just tracking unique Bluetooth devices and not specifically targeting this very uncommon application of it. Loosely related... There are two types if TPMS, direct and indirect. Direct TMPS use a battery powered sensor on either side of the valve stem to monitor tire pressure and transmit it wirelessly to the car's computer. They're very precise but rely on an expensive battery powered sensor on the valve stem, because of this they are less reliable, prone to failure, damage and tamper. You can identify direct TPMS by the green valve stem caps on a car. Indirect monitoring leverages the tire speed sensor of the ABS or ESC systems to monitor drag induced by a tire with low pressure, it's not precise but it's accurate and far more reliable. And quite clever IMO. The NHTSA instituted rule 126 requiring ESC on most vehicles, since TPMS and ABS are subsets of technology necessary for ESC, you should see all three features offered on most new cars today.
- gridscomputing 9y ago
  umm. green valve stem caps have nothing to do with TPMS. It's used by various places that fill tires with Nitrogen instead of ambient air.
  - cptskippy 9y ago
    gah... you're right.
- Overtonwindow 9y ago
  Forgive me, both with oredog64, I was told it was the bluetooth tire pressure sensors. I am not familiar with the other systems.

gwern 9y ago

There are also the commercial companies which run vans with cameras everywhere to systematically regularly record license plates/locations; this is then sold to advertisers, hedge funds, skiptracers, PIs etc.

Animats 9y ago

Snooping on tire pressure monitors has been demonstrated.[1][2] Range is about 10m with a simple antenna, 40m with a good directional one. Each tire sensor has a permanent 32-bit ID. Tire sensors only emit about once every 60-90 seconds (faster if the tire pressure is low), and only when the vehicle is moving (so the battery isn't drained while the car is parked.) Some can be triggered to transmit by an external LF signal, and this is done at vehicle start-up to get an initial tire check. That mechanism, though, is manufacturer-specific. As a surveillance system, this has only modest potential. It would be useful to pair this with license plate readers, and notice cars whose license plate/tire ID relationships have changed. It's probably more useful for taking inventory at car rental lots and finding abandoned/overtime cars in big parking lots. There might be commercial potential in this. Anybody with a big fleet could use something that checks their vehicles as they go in and out. [1] http://www.winlab.rutgers.edu/~Gruteser/papers/xu_tpms10.pdf http://www.winlab.rutgers.edu/~Gruteser/papers/xu_tpms10.pdf [2] http://elib.dlr.de/71397/1/VP_TS_NearctisTPMS_110607.pdf http://elib.dlr.de/71397/1/VP_TS_NearctisTPMS_110607.pdf

Romanulus 9y ago
Honest question to your statement: "It would be useful to pair this with license plate readers, and notice cars whose license plate/tire ID relationships have changed." How/Why?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway76543 9y ago
  Because they generally shouldn't change, unless someone is illegally swapping plates.
  - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
    I see you have new tires there citizen. Your papers please.

Justin_K 9y ago

Whether or not the gov uses these is irrelevant. With your logic, how about I put a camera on your house and snap photos of everybody that goes in an out of the door? Is that OK since the government could already do that if they wanted? Then what if I take these images and post them online with your name and address? It's all public information and data captured outside of your house. It should then be fine for me to take this public data and sell it to an aggregator, say Facebook and Amazon, right? Where do you draw the line?