4 ms·

Yes, and what some call daring, others call scary. One thing many people loved about Node was its openness to everyone. But when a leader of a group shows dista

Yes, and what some call daring, others call scary. One thing many people loved about Node was its openness to everyone. But when a leader of a group shows distaste for CoCs, one can see how that might mean the group's CoC may be threatened. Without CoCs, many people in the Node community wouldn't feel as safe. You may still feel just as safe, and that's great for you. But it's not very hard to understand why people aren't happy. Even if you vehemently despise CoCs, you should still be able to see how a mass exodus, for whatever reason, could be bad for a project's future.

shkkmo 9y ago
Have you read the article that was linked to? While I may not agree with the author's solution "use the ADA to eliminate campus speech codes that discriminate against neurominorities", I think he raises a very fair point about speech codes and how they can impact with poor social and people skills. The solution in my mind is not to eliminate CoCs but to start a discussion about how to improve them to mitigate this impact. This appears to be what the original tweet was doing "If you've never considered the potential downsides of codes of conduct, here's a good place to start" Apparently this is not a conversation it is ok to have if you are on a committee that is responsible for managing and enforcing the CoC? It seems to me like these are exactly the people who should be having this conversation.
root_axis 9y ago
> Without CoCs, many people in the Node community wouldn't feel as safe. I strongly disagree with this language. I support CoCs because I feel explicitly spelling out consequences for harassment allows for the unambiguous rejection of toxic behavior which creates a welcoming environment for new or otherwise anxious contributors... but nothing about CoC affects an individual's personal safety and using that type of hyperbolic language damages the cause more than it helps.
- jamescostian 9y ago
  Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that CoCs magically shield and help people. I simply meant that having a CoC and then removing it or ignoring it will make people feel like there aren't any "consequences for harassment" as you put it. When a CoC is removed or ignored, it makes people feel like there isn't any "unambiguous rejection of toxic behavior", so people don't feel like they're in a "welcoming environment for new or otherwise anxious contributors" Your wording is definitely better than mine, but I hope that doesn't detract from my point
  - root_axis 9y ago
    I got pedantic over the "safety" language but we're definitely in agreement.
peoplewindow 9y ago
What's so special about the Node community then? I've been doing open source work for 15+ years and I don't recall any of the projects I worked on having a CoC. Nor did it ever come up as an issue. I did see aggressive list moderation be abused to distort the technical path of a project though. You talk about a "mass exodus". I find myself skeptical of this claim. If the NodeJS contributors are so dependent on a CoC then it seems like they went badly wrong somewhere. Somehow other projects thrive without one.
- curtisblaine 9y ago
  "mass exodus" = exaggerated figure to create the impression of a crisis in an otherwise healthy community, in order to increase the drama.
  - jamescostian 9y ago
    Visit Twitter and look at Node's "thought leaders" and you'll see those words weren't just made up for fun and drama
- AaronFriel 9y ago
  The culture has changed, and many projects have codes of conducts now. Could you cite evidence of aggressive list moderation being abused to distort the technical path of a project? Is the project in question the Node.js project, or another?
  - peoplewindow 9y ago
    It wasn't node.js, I have never contributed to node.js The project is fairly well known to have serious issues with censorship of community forums and moderation. I don't wish to name it here because this is my anonymous account.
- curtisblaine 9y ago
  And yes, there are a lot of OS software projects that prospered without a CoC. Linux - coincidentally one of the most famous, successful and long-lived open source projects - is one of them. (And yes, now they have a CoC, which is not what the perennially-offended camp would like it to be: http://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-linux-camp-conflict-within/ http://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-linux-camp-conflict-...).
Grue3 9y ago
>One thing many people loved about Node was its openness to everyone. But when a leader of a group [demonstrates a different opinion], one can see how [they deserve to be kicked out]. Ok.

shkkmo 9y ago

Have you read the article that was linked to? While I may not agree with the author's solution "use the ADA to eliminate campus speech codes that discriminate against neurominorities", I think he raises a very fair point about speech codes and how they can impact with poor social and people skills. The solution in my mind is not to eliminate CoCs but to start a discussion about how to improve them to mitigate this impact. This appears to be what the original tweet was doing "If you've never considered the potential downsides of codes of conduct, here's a good place to start" Apparently this is not a conversation it is ok to have if you are on a committee that is responsible for managing and enforcing the CoC? It seems to me like these are exactly the people who should be having this conversation.

root_axis 9y ago

> Without CoCs, many people in the Node community wouldn't feel as safe. I strongly disagree with this language. I support CoCs because I feel explicitly spelling out consequences for harassment allows for the unambiguous rejection of toxic behavior which creates a welcoming environment for new or otherwise anxious contributors... but nothing about CoC affects an individual's personal safety and using that type of hyperbolic language damages the cause more than it helps.

jamescostian 9y ago
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that CoCs magically shield and help people. I simply meant that having a CoC and then removing it or ignoring it will make people feel like there aren't any "consequences for harassment" as you put it. When a CoC is removed or ignored, it makes people feel like there isn't any "unambiguous rejection of toxic behavior", so people don't feel like they're in a "welcoming environment for new or otherwise anxious contributors" Your wording is definitely better than mine, but I hope that doesn't detract from my point
- root_axis 9y ago
  I got pedantic over the "safety" language but we're definitely in agreement.

peoplewindow 9y ago

What's so special about the Node community then? I've been doing open source work for 15+ years and I don't recall any of the projects I worked on having a CoC. Nor did it ever come up as an issue. I did see aggressive list moderation be abused to distort the technical path of a project though. You talk about a "mass exodus". I find myself skeptical of this claim. If the NodeJS contributors are so dependent on a CoC then it seems like they went badly wrong somewhere. Somehow other projects thrive without one.

curtisblaine 9y ago
"mass exodus" = exaggerated figure to create the impression of a crisis in an otherwise healthy community, in order to increase the drama.
- jamescostian 9y ago
  Visit Twitter and look at Node's "thought leaders" and you'll see those words weren't just made up for fun and drama
AaronFriel 9y ago
The culture has changed, and many projects have codes of conducts now. Could you cite evidence of aggressive list moderation being abused to distort the technical path of a project? Is the project in question the Node.js project, or another?
- peoplewindow 9y ago
  It wasn't node.js, I have never contributed to node.js The project is fairly well known to have serious issues with censorship of community forums and moderation. I don't wish to name it here because this is my anonymous account.
curtisblaine 9y ago
And yes, there are a lot of OS software projects that prospered without a CoC. Linux - coincidentally one of the most famous, successful and long-lived open source projects - is one of them. (And yes, now they have a CoC, which is not what the perennially-offended camp would like it to be: http://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-linux-camp-conflict-within/ http://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-linux-camp-conflict-...).

Grue3 9y ago

>One thing many people loved about Node was its openness to everyone. But when a leader of a group [demonstrates a different opinion], one can see how [they deserve to be kicked out]. Ok.