7 ms·

I missed all this, what did rvagg do? Why are some people upset enough to try to vote him off the island, and leave when it didn't happen?

rileytg 9y ago
it's "redacted" in the name of transparency...
Others 9y ago
There is a list here: https://web.archive.org/web/20170821212745/https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 https://web.archive.org/web/20170821212745/https://github.co...
pimterry 9y ago
Pre-redaction details are here: https://web.archive.org/web/20170821212745/https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 https://web.archive.org/web/20170821212745/https://github.co...
geofft 9y ago
https://github.com/nodejs/community-committee/issues/111 https://github.com/nodejs/community-committee/issues/111 has a screenshot of the text previously in https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 because "listing the issues was not fair to Rod". I'm an outsider to this, but it seems to me that the tl;dr was that he was basically undermining the moderation actions of the TSC and CTC.
- koolba 9y ago
  Lines like this from your first link are scary: > Do Meeting Notes or a recording of the TSC vote exist? Is it known who voted what and who abstained? My interpretation is that it's asking, "Who's against us? Let's call them out..."
  - AaronFriel 9y ago
    Yes, that's how democratic systems function. If Congress passed laws by anonymous vote, individual voters would have no way of knowing if their representative is undermining their will. Likewise, members on the TSC likely represent constituent interests (or I would hope they do).
    - koolba 9y ago
      This isn't a democratic system. My understanding of how it's organized is that it's more of a politburo. Election of a new member, or eviction of an existing one, is done by existing membership and there's no public voting to elect any of the members. I see nothing wrong with having a private vote for something as sensitive as kicking someone out. It's no different than keeping jury deliberations private.
      - AaronFriel 9y ago
        Hm. Perhaps you're right. I think it's fair for people to wonder this question aloud without being thought "scary", though, don't you? I mean, from the perspective of say, folks that feel they were harassed (hypothetically), they would want to know who they should feel comfortable expressing their concerns to in the future, and who is or is not sympathetic to those concerns. Private votes that don't align with public behavior would also be concerning, and private votes encourage deceptive acts. For what it's worth, when Congress votes to censure, impeach, or remove, these are public votes. I don't think the jury analogy is quite apt, as the people voting were not selected in that manner. Is that fair?
        geofft 9y ago
        > I mean, from the perspective of say, folks that feel they were harassed (hypothetically), they would want to know who they should feel comfortable expressing their concerns to in the future, and who is or is not sympathetic to those concerns. Private votes that don't align with public behavior would also be concerning, and private votes encourage deceptive acts. I think that this is an extremely important point, given that the CoC says that the reporting path is an email alias that goes to the entire TSC. If the CoC's reporting path were some other group, I think it'd be a very different situation. (There are of course downsides to having a separate antiharassment group that has different power in the project from the core team, and may end up disagreeing with the core team, but it would avoid this particular problem.)
- mattnewton 9y ago
  Seems like an administrative issue then, and one that the administrative processes should be able to sort out. Or is there clear and present danger to the community's reputation?
syshum 9y ago
Seems he committed the cardinal sin of expressing support for Free Speech and questioning some aspects of Codes of Conduct. One can not even question the codes of conduct, they are written on stone and are beyond criticism and questioning...
- fixermark 9y ago
  ... or he committed the cardinal sin of questioning the Code of Conduct, and when challenged on it, responding with snark and condescension, demonstrating the need in the community for a Code of Conduct.
  - syshum 9y ago
    >>responding with snark and condescension Tell me it is not soo... Not snark and condescension.... Why that is the most terribleist thing ever.... <<Is this snark on my part....??> it makes me sad that we has a society seem to be reject the concept of Free Speech in favor of speech codes and acceptable Speech with punishment for anyone that does not use the "correct words"
    - geofft 9y ago
      If I go to an interview for a Python developer position, and I say "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it," and I don't get the job, it would be ridiculous for anyone to say that I got punished for not using the correct words. This is the same thing. The Node.js TSC is the body that maintains and enforces the Code of Conduct. Maybe Node should have a CoC, maybe not, but so long as it has one, the body that enforces the CoC should actually intend to enforce the CoC. If they don't want it - get rid of it! Lots of projects don't have one. But if they want it, certainly only people who actually intend to enforce the CoC should be enforcing the CoC.
      - syshum 9y ago
        >>If I go to an interview for a Python developer position, and I say "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it," and I don't get the job, it would be ridiculous for anyone to say that I got punished for not using the correct words. This is a terrible analogy and in no way related to the topic at hand. I am not even going to bother to refute it as it should be obvious as to why this analogy is flawed >>This is the same thing. The Node.js TSC is the body that maintains and enforces the Code of Conduct. the TSC seems to believe this was not a violation, and upon reading what the person is accused of, and the CoC I agree it is not a violation of their codes. Now it seems some in the project want to adopt even more restrictive CoC to further police any members actions even well beyond anything that is even connected with Node Development, that is insane
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

rileytg 9y ago

it's "redacted" in the name of transparency...

Others 9y ago

There is a list here: https://web.archive.org/web/20170821212745/https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 https://web.archive.org/web/20170821212745/https://github.co...

pimterry 9y ago

Pre-redaction details are here: https://web.archive.org/web/20170821212745/https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 https://web.archive.org/web/20170821212745/https://github.co...

geofft 9y ago

https://github.com/nodejs/community-committee/issues/111 https://github.com/nodejs/community-committee/issues/111 has a screenshot of the text previously in https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 because "listing the issues was not fair to Rod". I'm an outsider to this, but it seems to me that the tl;dr was that he was basically undermining the moderation actions of the TSC and CTC.

koolba 9y ago
Lines like this from your first link are scary: > Do Meeting Notes or a recording of the TSC vote exist? Is it known who voted what and who abstained? My interpretation is that it's asking, "Who's against us? Let's call them out..."
- AaronFriel 9y ago
  Yes, that's how democratic systems function. If Congress passed laws by anonymous vote, individual voters would have no way of knowing if their representative is undermining their will. Likewise, members on the TSC likely represent constituent interests (or I would hope they do).
  - koolba 9y ago
    This isn't a democratic system. My understanding of how it's organized is that it's more of a politburo. Election of a new member, or eviction of an existing one, is done by existing membership and there's no public voting to elect any of the members. I see nothing wrong with having a private vote for something as sensitive as kicking someone out. It's no different than keeping jury deliberations private.
    - AaronFriel 9y ago
      Hm. Perhaps you're right. I think it's fair for people to wonder this question aloud without being thought "scary", though, don't you? I mean, from the perspective of say, folks that feel they were harassed (hypothetically), they would want to know who they should feel comfortable expressing their concerns to in the future, and who is or is not sympathetic to those concerns. Private votes that don't align with public behavior would also be concerning, and private votes encourage deceptive acts. For what it's worth, when Congress votes to censure, impeach, or remove, these are public votes. I don't think the jury analogy is quite apt, as the people voting were not selected in that manner. Is that fair?
      - geofft 9y ago
        > I mean, from the perspective of say, folks that feel they were harassed (hypothetically), they would want to know who they should feel comfortable expressing their concerns to in the future, and who is or is not sympathetic to those concerns. Private votes that don't align with public behavior would also be concerning, and private votes encourage deceptive acts. I think that this is an extremely important point, given that the CoC says that the reporting path is an email alias that goes to the entire TSC. If the CoC's reporting path were some other group, I think it'd be a very different situation. (There are of course downsides to having a separate antiharassment group that has different power in the project from the core team, and may end up disagreeing with the core team, but it would avoid this particular problem.)
mattnewton 9y ago
Seems like an administrative issue then, and one that the administrative processes should be able to sort out. Or is there clear and present danger to the community's reputation?

syshum 9y ago

Seems he committed the cardinal sin of expressing support for Free Speech and questioning some aspects of Codes of Conduct. One can not even question the codes of conduct, they are written on stone and are beyond criticism and questioning...

fixermark 9y ago
... or he committed the cardinal sin of questioning the Code of Conduct, and when challenged on it, responding with snark and condescension, demonstrating the need in the community for a Code of Conduct.
- syshum 9y ago
  >>responding with snark and condescension Tell me it is not soo... Not snark and condescension.... Why that is the most terribleist thing ever.... <<Is this snark on my part....??> it makes me sad that we has a society seem to be reject the concept of Free Speech in favor of speech codes and acceptable Speech with punishment for anyone that does not use the "correct words"
  - geofft 9y ago
    If I go to an interview for a Python developer position, and I say "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it," and I don't get the job, it would be ridiculous for anyone to say that I got punished for not using the correct words. This is the same thing. The Node.js TSC is the body that maintains and enforces the Code of Conduct. Maybe Node should have a CoC, maybe not, but so long as it has one, the body that enforces the CoC should actually intend to enforce the CoC. If they don't want it - get rid of it! Lots of projects don't have one. But if they want it, certainly only people who actually intend to enforce the CoC should be enforcing the CoC.
    - syshum 9y ago
      >>If I go to an interview for a Python developer position, and I say "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it," and I don't get the job, it would be ridiculous for anyone to say that I got punished for not using the correct words. This is a terrible analogy and in no way related to the topic at hand. I am not even going to bother to refute it as it should be obvious as to why this analogy is flawed >>This is the same thing. The Node.js TSC is the body that maintains and enforces the Code of Conduct. the TSC seems to believe this was not a violation, and upon reading what the person is accused of, and the CoC I agree it is not a violation of their codes. Now it seems some in the project want to adopt even more restrictive CoC to further police any members actions even well beyond anything that is even connected with Node Development, that is insane

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]