12 ms·

UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

258 points by edent 9y ago

pyb 9y ago
This looks more like a manual. Where does it say that the infrastructure is open source ? I didn't see any source code.
- NotThatOwl 9y ago
  https://github.com/alphagov?q=pay- https://github.com/alphagov?q=pay-
- robin_reala 9y ago
  Look at the section marked ‘Key Open Source components’ and click on each microservice’s name to get to the repo.
  - pyb 9y ago
    Well spotted thanks !
- markyjones 9y ago
  Read down a bit further https://govukpay-docs.cloudapps.digital/#key-open-source-components https://govukpay-docs.cloudapps.digital/#key-open-source-com... the main components are linked to in the 'components' column. The link to the GitHub account also provide a filter on AlphaGov https://github.com/alphagov?q=pay- https://github.com/alphagov?q=pay-
robin_reala 9y ago
If you haven’t heard of this before there’s a good introduction to the project at https://gds.blog.gov.uk/2015/07/23/making-payments-more-convenient-and-efficient/ https://gds.blog.gov.uk/2015/07/23/making-payments-more-conv...
- peteretep 9y ago
  Linked from that: "Nearly two million adults in the UK do not have a bank account" http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31830117 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31830117
  - pjc50 9y ago
    Related: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/banking/basic-bank-accounts http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/banking/basic-bank-accounts There is actually a legal requirement for banks to offer no-credit no-fee accounts, in order to help people get into the banking system and take advantage of the associated discounts, but obviously they don't advertise it much.
    - catwell 9y ago
      I lived in England for about a year in 2009 - 2010 and I never had a bank account there. I was willing to open one, but a law (which probably existed to prevent fraud and laundering) made it very hard to do so without proof of permanent residence in the UK, which I did not have. Eventually I decided it was easier for me to upgrade my French Mastercard to the Gold level, where I had no extra fees when withdrawing or paying in pounds (nowadays I think you need Platinum for that).
      - pjc50 9y ago
        Good point - I wonder how many of those millions are non-permanent residents. The ID requirements are onerous, and like most countries it's easy to get stuck in a cyclic dependency loop of paperwork.
      - Reason077 9y ago
        As a French national you would only need 2 things to open a UK bank account: your French passport and some kind of document that shows you have a UK address. Proof of address used to be easy as any utility bill would do, but now days it's trickier because so much is done online and paper bills don't get sent out much any more! And, of course, it's a problem if the bills at your house are in someone else's name. (They won't accept print outs from the Internet for obvious reasons...) However, if you're registered for paying tax in the UK then you would certainly have a letter from Jobcentre Plus or HMRC showing your address. This would be accepted by your bank. Another option is to get a UK driver's license, which is pretty easy and inexpensive if you already have a driver's license from your (EU) home country.
Nursie 9y ago
Still got Google Analytics on the page. I do not feel that reporting every online interaction I have with my government in the UK, back to a huge corporate in the US, is in any way appropriate. But I can't even get anyone to engage on the issue. When I tried to raise it I got directed to a helpdesk ticket on a site run by an SV helpdesk-as-a-service company. I appreciate that gov.uk have done some great stuff getting the UK government online, and their designs and Open Source attitude are refreshing, but this is a a serious privacy issue.
- robin_reala 9y ago
  GDS’s GA Premium account contractually prevents Google from investigating the data, and Google self-anonymises with a flag in their API[1]. If you don’t trust them then that’s fine, but for functionality vs cost it seems to be the best option. For what it’s worth, for extremely sensitive projects like GOV.UK Verify other options are fine; Verify uses a local Piwik instance. You’re also welcome to block that specific JS or just turn off JS completely on GOV.UK properties - everything has to work without JS to go live on GOV.UK.[2] [1] https://support.google.com/analytics/answer/2763052?hl=en https://support.google.com/analytics/answer/2763052?hl=en [2] https://www.gov.uk/service-manual/technology/using-progressive-enhancement https://www.gov.uk/service-manual/technology/using-progressi...
  - splike 9y ago
    It's nice that Verify uses an internal analytics system, but the whole point of Verify is to outsource identifying people to private companies.
    - joelanman 9y ago
      That's because there was massive protest against a centralised ID system in the UK, which led to it being shut down. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/27/theresa-may-scrapping-id-cards https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/27/theresa-may...
    - robin_reala 9y ago
rekado 9y ago
I'm happy to see that they are using GNU Guix: https://github.com/alphagov?q=guix https://github.com/alphagov?q=guix
nepotism2018 9y ago
"Most people have to pay government money at some point or another"...its sad that this is a given now
- coffeedoughnuts 9y ago
  Is it sad? I'm quite proud to pay taxes of many different kinds, and I think that the (admittedly quite imperfect) tax system is necessary to a functioning society. I'd also mention that it's been part of British society since the Roman occupation, so not sure when in time you allude to with your comment but if you're sad about it I suggest investigating a move to one of the functional libertarian nations with no taxes.
  - duncan_bayne 9y ago
    sigh... do we really have to trot out the Somalia straw man every time someone criticises either compulsory taxation or socialism? Yes, taxation is necessary for a civilised society. No, it doesn't have to be compulsory, and no, it doesn't have to fund socialism.
    - Angostura 9y ago
      > Yes, taxation is necessary for a civilised society. No, it doesn't have to be compulsory I think you may have to explain that to me
      - duncan_bayne 9y ago
        The necessity bit, or the not being compulsory bit? No snark intended; I'm unsure whether you're an anarchist asking for a defence of the State, or a Statist asking for a defence of voluntary taxation :)
        orf 9y ago
        How about you just try and reconcile both contradictory points as best you can. I bet it will be some ideological Libertarian fantasy, but please do have a go.
camus2 9y ago
Interesting, if you check out the tech it's mostly Java for the backend and Javascript for the front-end.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
sitepodmatt 9y ago
Every interaction I have with a gov.uk portal is a painful UX disater - most recently passport and driver license, both had a submitting payment stage. I can't imagine anyone saying 'wow look how at the gov.uk got it right' lets use their code, a glorified CMS system with forms and payments bolted on - badly - so badly. Just rechecked it's still complete crap. They can't support the back button, no post / redirect pattern, confirm form resubmission. https://passportapplication.service.gov.uk/ https://passportapplication.service.gov.uk/
- robin_reala 9y ago
  The ‘Apply for a passport’ you linked to service is pretty old now and doesn’t reflect GDS’s current recommendations; as far as I understand it it was more of a reskin of an already existing system than anything done from the ground up. However there’s a newer service available from https://www.gov.uk/apply-renew-passport https://www.gov.uk/apply-renew-passport that is much more modern and actively developed. I’m not sure why they’re both still up (although HM Passport Office could probably tell you), but I’m also not sure how you got to the old one because all of the generic ‘passport’ searches I did on GOV.UK took me eventually to the newer version.
  - sitepodmatt 9y ago
    The link you posted redirects to original UX disaster after answering ten or so questions (each their own page and a click next). Seems you will only stay on the new site for booking and paying for a traditional walkin appointment.
    - robin_reala 9y ago
      Ah, OK. I didn’t work on it so good to know, hopefully it’ll have been completely modernised by 2019 when I need to reapply.
    - johneth 9y ago
      > (each their own page and a click next) I think it's made that way so that it works without Javascript.
chatmasta 9y ago
I went through a visa application process for the UK over the past few months. The main gov.uk site is a very good website for finding information, well designed, works on mobile, etc. Coming from the US, that was quite refreshing -- there's no equivalent in the US as everything is scattered across 100 different agency websites in 50 states. However the "business logic" of gov.uk is still sorely lacking. For the actual visa application process and payment, I was bounced around between 4-5 different third party websites handling different aspects of the process. I'm sure further integration with gov.uk is on the roadmap, and it will certainly be nice. As a new resident of the U.K., though, I have to admit I've been pleasantly surprised and very happy with the gov.uk website so far.
- maverick2 9y ago
  Canada's is same way. I am from India, and been in US for about half a decade. US's process is completely old school. Canada had plans to integrate all citizen services through one account dashboard, curious to see how countries roll-out services like those in next decade or so.
  - chatmasta 9y ago
    It will be especially difficult in the US where many of those services are federated across all fifty states.
confounded 9y ago
There are very few positive comments here, but I think it's fantastic that this progress has been made (even if it's not perfect). I had no idea the sites could be used without JS at all; that's brilliant!
Yakkety1610 9y ago
does this affect MiCard`s ? http://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-business/micard-delivers-post-office-digital-strategy/ http://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-business/micard-de...

258 points by edent 9y ago

pyb 9y ago

This looks more like a manual. Where does it say that the infrastructure is open source ? I didn't see any source code.

NotThatOwl 9y ago
https://github.com/alphagov?q=pay- https://github.com/alphagov?q=pay-
robin_reala 9y ago
Look at the section marked ‘Key Open Source components’ and click on each microservice’s name to get to the repo.
- pyb 9y ago
  Well spotted thanks !
markyjones 9y ago
Read down a bit further https://govukpay-docs.cloudapps.digital/#key-open-source-components https://govukpay-docs.cloudapps.digital/#key-open-source-com... the main components are linked to in the 'components' column. The link to the GitHub account also provide a filter on AlphaGov https://github.com/alphagov?q=pay- https://github.com/alphagov?q=pay-

robin_reala 9y ago

If you haven’t heard of this before there’s a good introduction to the project at https://gds.blog.gov.uk/2015/07/23/making-payments-more-convenient-and-efficient/ https://gds.blog.gov.uk/2015/07/23/making-payments-more-conv...

peteretep 9y ago
Linked from that: "Nearly two million adults in the UK do not have a bank account" http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31830117 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31830117
- pjc50 9y ago
  Related: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/banking/basic-bank-accounts http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/banking/basic-bank-accounts There is actually a legal requirement for banks to offer no-credit no-fee accounts, in order to help people get into the banking system and take advantage of the associated discounts, but obviously they don't advertise it much.
  - catwell 9y ago
    I lived in England for about a year in 2009 - 2010 and I never had a bank account there. I was willing to open one, but a law (which probably existed to prevent fraud and laundering) made it very hard to do so without proof of permanent residence in the UK, which I did not have. Eventually I decided it was easier for me to upgrade my French Mastercard to the Gold level, where I had no extra fees when withdrawing or paying in pounds (nowadays I think you need Platinum for that).
    - pjc50 9y ago
      Good point - I wonder how many of those millions are non-permanent residents. The ID requirements are onerous, and like most countries it's easy to get stuck in a cyclic dependency loop of paperwork.
    - Reason077 9y ago
      As a French national you would only need 2 things to open a UK bank account: your French passport and some kind of document that shows you have a UK address. Proof of address used to be easy as any utility bill would do, but now days it's trickier because so much is done online and paper bills don't get sent out much any more! And, of course, it's a problem if the bills at your house are in someone else's name. (They won't accept print outs from the Internet for obvious reasons...) However, if you're registered for paying tax in the UK then you would certainly have a letter from Jobcentre Plus or HMRC showing your address. This would be accepted by your bank. Another option is to get a UK driver's license, which is pretty easy and inexpensive if you already have a driver's license from your (EU) home country.

Nursie 9y ago

Still got Google Analytics on the page. I do not feel that reporting every online interaction I have with my government in the UK, back to a huge corporate in the US, is in any way appropriate. But I can't even get anyone to engage on the issue. When I tried to raise it I got directed to a helpdesk ticket on a site run by an SV helpdesk-as-a-service company. I appreciate that gov.uk have done some great stuff getting the UK government online, and their designs and Open Source attitude are refreshing, but this is a a serious privacy issue.

robin_reala 9y ago
GDS’s GA Premium account contractually prevents Google from investigating the data, and Google self-anonymises with a flag in their API[1]. If you don’t trust them then that’s fine, but for functionality vs cost it seems to be the best option. For what it’s worth, for extremely sensitive projects like GOV.UK Verify other options are fine; Verify uses a local Piwik instance. You’re also welcome to block that specific JS or just turn off JS completely on GOV.UK properties - everything has to work without JS to go live on GOV.UK.[2] [1] https://support.google.com/analytics/answer/2763052?hl=en https://support.google.com/analytics/answer/2763052?hl=en [2] https://www.gov.uk/service-manual/technology/using-progressive-enhancement https://www.gov.uk/service-manual/technology/using-progressi...
- splike 9y ago
  It's nice that Verify uses an internal analytics system, but the whole point of Verify is to outsource identifying people to private companies.
  - joelanman 9y ago
    That's because there was massive protest against a centralised ID system in the UK, which led to it being shut down. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/27/theresa-may-scrapping-id-cards https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/27/theresa-may...
  - robin_reala 9y ago

rekado 9y ago

I'm happy to see that they are using GNU Guix: https://github.com/alphagov?q=guix https://github.com/alphagov?q=guix

nepotism2018 9y ago

"Most people have to pay government money at some point or another"...its sad that this is a given now

coffeedoughnuts 9y ago
Is it sad? I'm quite proud to pay taxes of many different kinds, and I think that the (admittedly quite imperfect) tax system is necessary to a functioning society. I'd also mention that it's been part of British society since the Roman occupation, so not sure when in time you allude to with your comment but if you're sad about it I suggest investigating a move to one of the functional libertarian nations with no taxes.
- duncan_bayne 9y ago
  sigh... do we really have to trot out the Somalia straw man every time someone criticises either compulsory taxation or socialism? Yes, taxation is necessary for a civilised society. No, it doesn't have to be compulsory, and no, it doesn't have to fund socialism.
  - Angostura 9y ago
    > Yes, taxation is necessary for a civilised society. No, it doesn't have to be compulsory I think you may have to explain that to me
    - duncan_bayne 9y ago
      The necessity bit, or the not being compulsory bit? No snark intended; I'm unsure whether you're an anarchist asking for a defence of the State, or a Statist asking for a defence of voluntary taxation :)
      - orf 9y ago
        How about you just try and reconcile both contradictory points as best you can. I bet it will be some ideological Libertarian fantasy, but please do have a go.

camus2 9y ago

Interesting, if you check out the tech it's mostly Java for the backend and Javascript for the front-end.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

sitepodmatt 9y ago

Every interaction I have with a gov.uk portal is a painful UX disater - most recently passport and driver license, both had a submitting payment stage. I can't imagine anyone saying 'wow look how at the gov.uk got it right' lets use their code, a glorified CMS system with forms and payments bolted on - badly - so badly. Just rechecked it's still complete crap. They can't support the back button, no post / redirect pattern, confirm form resubmission. https://passportapplication.service.gov.uk/ https://passportapplication.service.gov.uk/

robin_reala 9y ago
The ‘Apply for a passport’ you linked to service is pretty old now and doesn’t reflect GDS’s current recommendations; as far as I understand it it was more of a reskin of an already existing system than anything done from the ground up. However there’s a newer service available from https://www.gov.uk/apply-renew-passport https://www.gov.uk/apply-renew-passport that is much more modern and actively developed. I’m not sure why they’re both still up (although HM Passport Office could probably tell you), but I’m also not sure how you got to the old one because all of the generic ‘passport’ searches I did on GOV.UK took me eventually to the newer version.
- sitepodmatt 9y ago
  The link you posted redirects to original UX disaster after answering ten or so questions (each their own page and a click next). Seems you will only stay on the new site for booking and paying for a traditional walkin appointment.
  - robin_reala 9y ago
    Ah, OK. I didn’t work on it so good to know, hopefully it’ll have been completely modernised by 2019 when I need to reapply.
  - johneth 9y ago
    > (each their own page and a click next) I think it's made that way so that it works without Javascript.

chatmasta 9y ago

I went through a visa application process for the UK over the past few months. The main gov.uk site is a very good website for finding information, well designed, works on mobile, etc. Coming from the US, that was quite refreshing -- there's no equivalent in the US as everything is scattered across 100 different agency websites in 50 states. However the "business logic" of gov.uk is still sorely lacking. For the actual visa application process and payment, I was bounced around between 4-5 different third party websites handling different aspects of the process. I'm sure further integration with gov.uk is on the roadmap, and it will certainly be nice. As a new resident of the U.K., though, I have to admit I've been pleasantly surprised and very happy with the gov.uk website so far.

maverick2 9y ago
Canada's is same way. I am from India, and been in US for about half a decade. US's process is completely old school. Canada had plans to integrate all citizen services through one account dashboard, curious to see how countries roll-out services like those in next decade or so.
- chatmasta 9y ago
  It will be especially difficult in the US where many of those services are federated across all fifty states.

confounded 9y ago

There are very few positive comments here, but I think it's fantastic that this progress has been made (even if it's not perfect). I had no idea the sites could be used without JS at all; that's brilliant!

Yakkety1610 9y ago

does this affect MiCard`s ? http://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-business/micard-delivers-post-office-digital-strategy/ http://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-business/micard-de...