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blah blah blah how can we work less and say it is a good thing? Lets write an article about it and rewrirte stuff which is out there for years. There is a diff

by sigi45 9y ago

blah blah blah how can we work less and say it is a good thing? Lets write an article about it and rewrirte stuff which is out there for years. There is a difference if you work 4h a day or 8. 4h. 99% of Jobs do benefit of working 8h a day. A cleaning person can do way more in 8h than in 4h. the construction worker will also do more. But not the software engineere! Because he/she is doing 'mind work'. This is bullshit. Yeah we are privileged and yes we understand that there might not be a need to work 8h but than just say it how it is and not invent some bullshit.

mdekkers 9y ago
But not the software engineere! Because he/she is doing 'mind work'. This is bullshit. Can you qualify your "this is bullshit" statement? Other than just ranting about it? There is a significant difference between manual workers and knowledge workers, and pretending it is all the same thing is disingenuous. This isn't a statement about knowledge workers being "better" or "superior", it is simply a recognition of the the fact that these two labor types are not the same. I actively try to limit my "work" time, because like it or not, my brain doesn't stop working on my active problems and tasks. As somebody who has suffered through 3 consecutive burn-outs, I can only say that I wholly agree with the 4-hour workday.
- sigi45 9y ago
  There is a difference between not knowing when there is to much stress and saing, that 4h are enough. I do get more stuff done when i work longer. I might get distracted by stuff but this is also a part of my work. Helping my collegues? Yes part of my job. I do not count my lunch time as work. And no not the majority of my work as a software engineere is thinking, thinking and thinking. What i really think is tiring is making decisions. Most of people out there have bad jobs and get paid little. But look at us: Earning good money and talkling about 4h workdays for the same pay. Its fucking arrogant. I can only recommend to read this: http://bookofhook.blogspot.de/2013/03/smart-guy-productivity-pitfalls.html http://bookofhook.blogspot.de/2013/03/smart-guy-productivity... and no there is no 'but i did my work so i can go home' How about spending the rest of the time to improve something in your company? or bring the garbage out? Or whatever? And if you are part of a team, you put less work in than others and let them down :(
alkonaut 9y ago
I think 99% is way exaggerated, at least for a lot of developed countries. Places where the commutes are longest (i.e. big cities) have an even higher fraction of people who don't benefit from longer hours linearly. Also, if "mind workers" workdays were shorter, so could the work day of the people caring for their kids, driving rush hour buses, cleaning offices after closing and so on. So the effect would grow slightly beyond the first group of office workers too. Even if this only applies to say 10% of the population and 20% in cities, that's still a huge group of people. I don't think 4h is a realistic goal short term but we have done 40h for a very long time now. Since we began with 40h, most countries have gone from 1, to 2, 3, 4 to 5 or 6 weeks of holiday (for example). It seems natural that the next step would be shorter workdays.
herbst 9y ago
My boss always quotet that he is happy if we are able to be 60% efficient. A lot of time is wasted for the morning coffee and some time after lunch break. A 4 hour workday would make me come to work Ready and finish with at max a short break in between. I would say in about 5 hours of constant work I would definitly do more on average than with 8. Btw I tried 32/h weeks & 3/4/5h days I never did less work in the end than with 8
- sigi45 9y ago
  And you have never thought about how you waste your time? I mean how long are you doing your morning coffee oO?! Srsly? why do you think that should be working time? 'some time after lunch break'?
  - herbst 9y ago
    It was part of the company culture. Coffee could take a hour or two and was only semi off work.
catdog 9y ago
> But not the software engineere! Because he/she is doing 'mind work'. This is bullshit. Why should this be bullshit? Unlike the cleaning persons work a significant portion of this work involves thinking, both consciously and subconsciously. Sitting 2x the time at your desk does not necessarily equate to 2x work done while on the other hand you don't leave your work behind you after leaving. It's really not about working less but more on how to rightfully account the mind work in hours and about how to spend that time most productively. > blah blah blah how can we work less and say it is a good thing? Lets write an article about it and rewrirte stuff which is out there for years. Why shouldn't it be a good thing in general if the work still gets done? Especially for the tedious manual labor you mention which is automated away more and more.

by sigi45 9y ago

mdekkers 9y ago

But not the software engineere! Because he/she is doing 'mind work'. This is bullshit. Can you qualify your "this is bullshit" statement? Other than just ranting about it? There is a significant difference between manual workers and knowledge workers, and pretending it is all the same thing is disingenuous. This isn't a statement about knowledge workers being "better" or "superior", it is simply a recognition of the the fact that these two labor types are not the same. I actively try to limit my "work" time, because like it or not, my brain doesn't stop working on my active problems and tasks. As somebody who has suffered through 3 consecutive burn-outs, I can only say that I wholly agree with the 4-hour workday.

sigi45 9y ago
There is a difference between not knowing when there is to much stress and saing, that 4h are enough. I do get more stuff done when i work longer. I might get distracted by stuff but this is also a part of my work. Helping my collegues? Yes part of my job. I do not count my lunch time as work. And no not the majority of my work as a software engineere is thinking, thinking and thinking. What i really think is tiring is making decisions. Most of people out there have bad jobs and get paid little. But look at us: Earning good money and talkling about 4h workdays for the same pay. Its fucking arrogant. I can only recommend to read this: http://bookofhook.blogspot.de/2013/03/smart-guy-productivity-pitfalls.html http://bookofhook.blogspot.de/2013/03/smart-guy-productivity... and no there is no 'but i did my work so i can go home' How about spending the rest of the time to improve something in your company? or bring the garbage out? Or whatever? And if you are part of a team, you put less work in than others and let them down :(

alkonaut 9y ago

I think 99% is way exaggerated, at least for a lot of developed countries. Places where the commutes are longest (i.e. big cities) have an even higher fraction of people who don't benefit from longer hours linearly. Also, if "mind workers" workdays were shorter, so could the work day of the people caring for their kids, driving rush hour buses, cleaning offices after closing and so on. So the effect would grow slightly beyond the first group of office workers too. Even if this only applies to say 10% of the population and 20% in cities, that's still a huge group of people. I don't think 4h is a realistic goal short term but we have done 40h for a very long time now. Since we began with 40h, most countries have gone from 1, to 2, 3, 4 to 5 or 6 weeks of holiday (for example). It seems natural that the next step would be shorter workdays.

herbst 9y ago

My boss always quotet that he is happy if we are able to be 60% efficient. A lot of time is wasted for the morning coffee and some time after lunch break. A 4 hour workday would make me come to work Ready and finish with at max a short break in between. I would say in about 5 hours of constant work I would definitly do more on average than with 8. Btw I tried 32/h weeks & 3/4/5h days I never did less work in the end than with 8

sigi45 9y ago
And you have never thought about how you waste your time? I mean how long are you doing your morning coffee oO?! Srsly? why do you think that should be working time? 'some time after lunch break'?
- herbst 9y ago
  It was part of the company culture. Coffee could take a hour or two and was only semi off work.

catdog 9y ago

> But not the software engineere! Because he/she is doing 'mind work'. This is bullshit. Why should this be bullshit? Unlike the cleaning persons work a significant portion of this work involves thinking, both consciously and subconsciously. Sitting 2x the time at your desk does not necessarily equate to 2x work done while on the other hand you don't leave your work behind you after leaving. It's really not about working less but more on how to rightfully account the mind work in hours and about how to spend that time most productively. > blah blah blah how can we work less and say it is a good thing? Lets write an article about it and rewrirte stuff which is out there for years. Why shouldn't it be a good thing in general if the work still gets done? Especially for the tedious manual labor you mention which is automated away more and more.