6 ms·

Android have been promising to finally tackle fragmentation in every release since KitKat. It seems people have a very short memory.

abritinthebay 9y ago
While I agree with the skepticism because, frankly, Google can not be trusted to deliver on most product promises they make... ... they have gotten better at this.
robert_foss 9y ago
The code speaks for itself. Any Android implementation is now split in two halfs, one which is easily replaced and one which is not. If vendors choose to not use this feature it is on them.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Actually since Google is still allowing customizations, it will hardly change anything.
  - ndesaulniers 9y ago
    Actually, this is not an allowed customization.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Then spend one hour of your life listening to ADB Podcast, where Android team explicitly states that, saying that they don't want to encumber the work of them creating unique experiences. http://androidbackstage.blogspot.de/2017/08/episode-75-project-treble-for-hal-of-it.html http://androidbackstage.blogspot.de/2017/08/episode-75-proje...
      - ndesaulniers 9y ago
        I sit next to Iliyan; I mentioned your comment to him and he chuckled.
    - cbsmith 9y ago
      That'd be a significant change to the Android license. AFAIK no such change has taken place.
  - eloisant 9y ago
    They can impose whatever they want to OEMs who want to ship the Play Services and Google apps. That's pretty much all of them. If they say "install it this way or no Play Store for you", every manufacturer will follow.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      That is what I have been wishing for years, and yet they still choose not to do it.
    - Mindwipe 9y ago
      They almost certainly cannot do that in Europe at the moment given the regulatory situation. Indeed, I expect to see far fewer restrictions going forward, not more.
    - freech 9y ago
      Why would they do that? Isn't Play Store the way Google monetizes android?
notatoad 9y ago
And they have been, gradually. Treble is a relatively big step, comparatively, but it's not like it's the first thing they've done. There's a reason that "new emoji" is a headline feature now, a lot of the system has been pulled out and is distributed seperately to the OS now so it doesn't have to go through the vendor's QA cycle.
mkhpalm 9y ago
Functional planned obsolescence. Hardware vendors will find a way to break hardware abstraction layers... so they can sell more hardware. Its the business model.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  I bought a series of Nexus phones. The Nexus 5 no longer works. The Nexus 4 still works, but its battery is puffing out. The Nexus S has no hardware problems at all, but it's too underpowered to run modern software. The model "phone vendors nefariously build products with short lifespans, regardless of what people want to buy, so that they can sell more hardware" has trouble explaining why the longest-lived phones are the earliest ones. It seems more likely that the phone vendors of today build phones with short lifespans because bitter experience tells them that building a robust, long-lived phone is all cost and no benefit -- the phone costs more, it's heavier, it's fatter, and all your customers replace it before the cheaper, sleeker, more attractive phone would have failed anyway, meaning they actually get zero minutes of extended lifespan. It's the same reason animals age and die.
  - throwaway613834 9y ago
    > The model "phone vendors nefariously build products with short lifespans, regardless of what people want to buy, so that they can sell more hardware" has trouble explaining why the longest-lived phones are the earliest ones. Maybe because first you try to make your earlier products good to get customers, and then once your business is going and you've grabbed a portion of the market you find it profitable to take risks like this?
  - meerita 9y ago
    My phone did died too (Nexus 6P). This doesn't mean all Nexus phones will die within opening the box.
    - rypskar 9y ago
      I am still using my Nexus 4 from 2012, the only issue with it is that I don't get any upgrades anymore
eloisant 9y ago
I think they did a great job at reducing fragmentation by pulling out most of the OS into upgradable components. All applications are upgradable, even Play Services are upgradable, and developers get the support library to get all the new things to all devices. So I believe they did a great job at reducing fragmentation in the sense that it no longer really matters what version you have, you still get all the newest stuff. Just look at every iOS version announcement: 3/4 of the new features are in the apps: iMessages, maps, home screen...
- mariusmg 9y ago
  > by pulling out most of the OS into upgradable components. That's not true (the most of the OS part). They untangled their own stuff (Play Store, Google services and so on) and can update those as they see fit. The OS stuff is still monolithic. Most of serious security issues still require full OS updates. Also supporting a new major version of Android runtime still require a full OS update.
  - tomkarlo 9y ago
    Most security issues are handled by security updates, which don't require a letter update. They're issued as patches, so OEMs can issue them for an older device without updating it to a new release. https://www.android.com/security-center/monthly-security-updates/ https://www.android.com/security-center/monthly-security-upd...
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      They can, but most don't.
      - tomkarlo 9y ago
        Most of the major OEMs do. The security update rate for upper tier phones runs about 75% within 3 months these days. Anyway, I was responding to the comment "Most of serious security issues still require full OS updates." This is demonstrably inaccurate since the security patches do not require a full OS update.

abritinthebay 9y ago

While I agree with the skepticism because, frankly, Google can not be trusted to deliver on most product promises they make... ... they have gotten better at this.

robert_foss 9y ago

The code speaks for itself. Any Android implementation is now split in two halfs, one which is easily replaced and one which is not. If vendors choose to not use this feature it is on them.

pjmlp 9y ago
Actually since Google is still allowing customizations, it will hardly change anything.
- ndesaulniers 9y ago
  Actually, this is not an allowed customization.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Then spend one hour of your life listening to ADB Podcast, where Android team explicitly states that, saying that they don't want to encumber the work of them creating unique experiences. http://androidbackstage.blogspot.de/2017/08/episode-75-project-treble-for-hal-of-it.html http://androidbackstage.blogspot.de/2017/08/episode-75-proje...
    - ndesaulniers 9y ago
      I sit next to Iliyan; I mentioned your comment to him and he chuckled.
  - cbsmith 9y ago
    That'd be a significant change to the Android license. AFAIK no such change has taken place.
- eloisant 9y ago
  They can impose whatever they want to OEMs who want to ship the Play Services and Google apps. That's pretty much all of them. If they say "install it this way or no Play Store for you", every manufacturer will follow.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    That is what I have been wishing for years, and yet they still choose not to do it.
  - Mindwipe 9y ago
    They almost certainly cannot do that in Europe at the moment given the regulatory situation. Indeed, I expect to see far fewer restrictions going forward, not more.
  - freech 9y ago
    Why would they do that? Isn't Play Store the way Google monetizes android?

notatoad 9y ago

And they have been, gradually. Treble is a relatively big step, comparatively, but it's not like it's the first thing they've done. There's a reason that "new emoji" is a headline feature now, a lot of the system has been pulled out and is distributed seperately to the OS now so it doesn't have to go through the vendor's QA cycle.

mkhpalm 9y ago

Functional planned obsolescence. Hardware vendors will find a way to break hardware abstraction layers... so they can sell more hardware. Its the business model.

thaumasiotes 9y ago
I bought a series of Nexus phones. The Nexus 5 no longer works. The Nexus 4 still works, but its battery is puffing out. The Nexus S has no hardware problems at all, but it's too underpowered to run modern software. The model "phone vendors nefariously build products with short lifespans, regardless of what people want to buy, so that they can sell more hardware" has trouble explaining why the longest-lived phones are the earliest ones. It seems more likely that the phone vendors of today build phones with short lifespans because bitter experience tells them that building a robust, long-lived phone is all cost and no benefit -- the phone costs more, it's heavier, it's fatter, and all your customers replace it before the cheaper, sleeker, more attractive phone would have failed anyway, meaning they actually get zero minutes of extended lifespan. It's the same reason animals age and die.
- throwaway613834 9y ago
  > The model "phone vendors nefariously build products with short lifespans, regardless of what people want to buy, so that they can sell more hardware" has trouble explaining why the longest-lived phones are the earliest ones. Maybe because first you try to make your earlier products good to get customers, and then once your business is going and you've grabbed a portion of the market you find it profitable to take risks like this?
- meerita 9y ago
  My phone did died too (Nexus 6P). This doesn't mean all Nexus phones will die within opening the box.
  - rypskar 9y ago
    I am still using my Nexus 4 from 2012, the only issue with it is that I don't get any upgrades anymore

eloisant 9y ago

I think they did a great job at reducing fragmentation by pulling out most of the OS into upgradable components. All applications are upgradable, even Play Services are upgradable, and developers get the support library to get all the new things to all devices. So I believe they did a great job at reducing fragmentation in the sense that it no longer really matters what version you have, you still get all the newest stuff. Just look at every iOS version announcement: 3/4 of the new features are in the apps: iMessages, maps, home screen...

mariusmg 9y ago
> by pulling out most of the OS into upgradable components. That's not true (the most of the OS part). They untangled their own stuff (Play Store, Google services and so on) and can update those as they see fit. The OS stuff is still monolithic. Most of serious security issues still require full OS updates. Also supporting a new major version of Android runtime still require a full OS update.
- tomkarlo 9y ago
  Most security issues are handled by security updates, which don't require a letter update. They're issued as patches, so OEMs can issue them for an older device without updating it to a new release. https://www.android.com/security-center/monthly-security-updates/ https://www.android.com/security-center/monthly-security-upd...
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    They can, but most don't.
    - tomkarlo 9y ago
      Most of the major OEMs do. The security update rate for upper tier phones runs about 75% within 3 months these days. Anyway, I was responding to the comment "Most of serious security issues still require full OS updates." This is demonstrably inaccurate since the security patches do not require a full OS update.