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It would also be interesting to hear about why there are no entrance exams in the dutch system (or at least the article does not mention them).

by sannee 9y ago

MrQuincle 9y ago
There is a nation wide exam called CITO at the end of primary school: https://www.expatica.com/nl/education/Explaining-the-Cito-exams_100820.html https://www.expatica.com/nl/education/Explaining-the-Cito-ex...
jorams 9y ago
I wanted to give you a brief explanation, but I ended up summarising the entire Dutch school system. I also just found out there's a comprehensive-looking Wikipedia article [10] on the matter, so perhaps this wall of text is unnecessary. I have added sources, primarily on Wikipedia, some in Dutch and some in English. I only used them to check some facts. How the Dutch school system works: The school system in the Netherlands is separated into three stages: primary school, secondary school, and higher education. Primary school is separated into 8 stages, which normally correspond to years. These are "group 1" to "group 8". Children start school roughly when they are 4 years old, but education is compulsory from age 5. These 8 years increasingly introduce different subjects and increase difficulty, with reading, spelling, and arithmetic in group 3, English starting in group 7, etc [1]. During primary school, progress of each student is tracked using tests, allowing the teacher to see how the child develops. Near the end of primary school, the teacher gives a formal "school advice" for the secondary school level. There's also a final test after this, and if the student excels unexpectedly the school needs to reconsider their advice and possibly adjust it. This test is an extra piece of data for the secondary school to consider. The primary school's advice determines which level of secondary schooling the student can enter [2]. The secondary school may not base their acceptance on other tests and may not require any extra tests, unless they provide a "special" kind of education, like bilingual education or education focused at professional sports. In that case, the extra test may only test the student's special abilities required for the school. Secondary school [3] generally takes between 4 and 6 years, and is divided into four levels of increasing difficulty: practical education, vmbo (+ mbo), havo, and vwo. Practical education [4] does not have a specified duration and is meant for students with particularly low intelligence (60 to 75-80) and a learning delay of at least 3 years. Vmbo [5] is preparational secondary vocational education and is again divided into 4 levels, in increasing order of theory-orientedness. It takes 4 years and ends with a final, nationwide exam. It prepares the student for a job, for havo or for mbo. About 60% of all students in secondary education follow vmbo. After vmbo the student can go to mbo [6], which is secondary vocational education. It is focused at joining the job market and, again, divided into 4 levels. The first level does not actually require any previous qualifications and educates the student to become an assistant professional, the second level prepares the student to become a basic professional, the third level prepares the student to become an independent professional, and the fourth level prepares the student to become a specialized professional. The fourth level also allows the student to progress to hbo. Mbo corresponds roughly to community college in the US. Havo [7] is higher general secondary education, takes 5 years, and is followed by about 20% of all secondary education students. Havo prepares the student for hbo, but after 3 years one can also be admitted to mbo. Vwo [8] is preparational scientific education, takes 6 years, and is also followed by about 20% of all secondary education students. It comes in a few variants, primarily atheneum and gymnasium. The difference between those is that gymnasium includes Latin and/or Greek. Vwo prepares the student for wo. Higher education consists of hbo [9], higher vocational education, and wo, scientific education. Hbo is focused at the application of scientific knowledge, while wo is focused at scientific research. These follow the international standards for higher education. As an aside, the terminology around higher education can be a bit confusing when translating between Dutch and English. Hbo is delivered at a "hoge school", which translates literally to English as "high school". The proper English term is "university of applied sciences". Furthermore, in Dutch wo is commonly (even usually) called "universiteit", Dutch for "university". When doing hbo, saying in English that you are a university student may therefore feel like a lie, while being correct. [1] (Dutch): https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basisonderwijs_in_Nederland https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basisonderwijs_in_Nederland [2] (Dutch): https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/toelating-middelbare-school/toelating-voortgezet-onderwijs-gebaseerd-op-schooladvies https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/toelating-middelbar... [3] (Dutch): https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voortgezet_onderwijs https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voortgezet_onderwijs [4] (Dutch): https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praktijkonderwijs https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praktijkonderwijs [5] (English): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorbereidend_middelbaar_beroepsonderwijs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorbereidend_middelbaar_beroe... [6] (Dutch): https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelbaar_beroepsonderwijs https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelbaar_beroepsonderwijs [7] (English): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoger_algemeen_voortgezet_onderwijs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoger_algemeen_voortgezet_onde... [8] (English): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorbereidend_wetenschappelijk_onderwijs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorbereidend_wetenschappelijk... [9] (Dutch): https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoger_beroepsonderwijs https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoger_beroepsonderwijs [10] (English): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Netherlands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Netherlands
Rainymood 9y ago
There are nation wide tests at the end of primary school (to get into high school) i.e. CITO and NIO I believe. If you score well on these tests you get a good 'advice' which is non-binding which this post is about. I had a near perfect CITO score but a literally retarded NIO score because they explained me how the test worked wrong (I was probably being stupid and WAY took their words LITERALLY [1]). So they basically averaged my scores (best and worst) and said "Well you go to the HAVO" which is average. My parents did NOT sit well with that and just said "No he's going to Gymniasum (highest possible class with Latin/Greek) whether you want it or not. We all know he just screwed up there on that one tests because you explained him the instructions wrong." Anyway, 11 years later and I'm doing a PhD in applied mathematics. I'm really happy my parents fought for me to go to Gymnasium and I'm so glad the advice isn't binding. I'm not sure whether it still isn't binding or they changed it somehow. [1] The instructor told us that "at the end of your test you will have time to finish your questions". So what stupid little me did was I made half the test, then I waited till the time ran out and when they took my paper I asked "can I finish the questions now?" And they just took my paper away.

It would also be interesting to hear about why there are no entrance exams in the dutch system (or at least the article does not mention them).

by sannee 9y ago

It would also be interesting to hear about why there are no entrance exams in the dutch system (or at least the article does not mention them).

MrQuincle 9y ago

There is a nation wide exam called CITO at the end of primary school: https://www.expatica.com/nl/education/Explaining-the-Cito-exams_100820.html https://www.expatica.com/nl/education/Explaining-the-Cito-ex...

jorams 9y ago

I wanted to give you a brief explanation, but I ended up summarising the entire Dutch school system. I also just found out there's a comprehensive-looking Wikipedia article [10] on the matter, so perhaps this wall of text is unnecessary. I have added sources, primarily on Wikipedia, some in Dutch and some in English. I only used them to check some facts. How the Dutch school system works: The school system in the Netherlands is separated into three stages: primary school, secondary school, and higher education. Primary school is separated into 8 stages, which normally correspond to years. These are "group 1" to "group 8". Children start school roughly when they are 4 years old, but education is compulsory from age 5. These 8 years increasingly introduce different subjects and increase difficulty, with reading, spelling, and arithmetic in group 3, English starting in group 7, etc [1]. During primary school, progress of each student is tracked using tests, allowing the teacher to see how the child develops. Near the end of primary school, the teacher gives a formal "school advice" for the secondary school level. There's also a final test after this, and if the student excels unexpectedly the school needs to reconsider their advice and possibly adjust it. This test is an extra piece of data for the secondary school to consider. The primary school's advice determines which level of secondary schooling the student can enter [2]. The secondary school may not base their acceptance on other tests and may not require any extra tests, unless they provide a "special" kind of education, like bilingual education or education focused at professional sports. In that case, the extra test may only test the student's special abilities required for the school. Secondary school [3] generally takes between 4 and 6 years, and is divided into four levels of increasing difficulty: practical education, vmbo (+ mbo), havo, and vwo. Practical education [4] does not have a specified duration and is meant for students with particularly low intelligence (60 to 75-80) and a learning delay of at least 3 years. Vmbo [5] is preparational secondary vocational education and is again divided into 4 levels, in increasing order of theory-orientedness. It takes 4 years and ends with a final, nationwide exam. It prepares the student for a job, for havo or for mbo. About 60% of all students in secondary education follow vmbo. After vmbo the student can go to mbo [6], which is secondary vocational education. It is focused at joining the job market and, again, divided into 4 levels. The first level does not actually require any previous qualifications and educates the student to become an assistant professional, the second level prepares the student to become a basic professional, the third level prepares the student to become an independent professional, and the fourth level prepares the student to become a specialized professional. The fourth level also allows the student to progress to hbo. Mbo corresponds roughly to community college in the US. Havo [7] is higher general secondary education, takes 5 years, and is followed by about 20% of all secondary education students. Havo prepares the student for hbo, but after 3 years one can also be admitted to mbo. Vwo [8] is preparational scientific education, takes 6 years, and is also followed by about 20% of all secondary education students. It comes in a few variants, primarily atheneum and gymnasium. The difference between those is that gymnasium includes Latin and/or Greek. Vwo prepares the student for wo. Higher education consists of hbo [9], higher vocational education, and wo, scientific education. Hbo is focused at the application of scientific knowledge, while wo is focused at scientific research. These follow the international standards for higher education. As an aside, the terminology around higher education can be a bit confusing when translating between Dutch and English. Hbo is delivered at a "hoge school", which translates literally to English as "high school". The proper English term is "university of applied sciences". Furthermore, in Dutch wo is commonly (even usually) called "universiteit", Dutch for "university". When doing hbo, saying in English that you are a university student may therefore feel like a lie, while being correct. [1] (Dutch): https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basisonderwijs_in_Nederland https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basisonderwijs_in_Nederland [2] (Dutch): https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/toelating-middelbare-school/toelating-voortgezet-onderwijs-gebaseerd-op-schooladvies https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/toelating-middelbar... [3] (Dutch): https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voortgezet_onderwijs https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voortgezet_onderwijs [4] (Dutch): https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praktijkonderwijs https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praktijkonderwijs [5] (English): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorbereidend_middelbaar_beroepsonderwijs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorbereidend_middelbaar_beroe... [6] (Dutch): https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelbaar_beroepsonderwijs https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelbaar_beroepsonderwijs [7] (English): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoger_algemeen_voortgezet_onderwijs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoger_algemeen_voortgezet_onde... [8] (English): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorbereidend_wetenschappelijk_onderwijs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorbereidend_wetenschappelijk... [9] (Dutch): https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoger_beroepsonderwijs https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoger_beroepsonderwijs [10] (English): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Netherlands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Netherlands

Rainymood 9y ago

There are nation wide tests at the end of primary school (to get into high school) i.e. CITO and NIO I believe. If you score well on these tests you get a good 'advice' which is non-binding which this post is about. I had a near perfect CITO score but a literally retarded NIO score because they explained me how the test worked wrong (I was probably being stupid and WAY took their words LITERALLY [1]). So they basically averaged my scores (best and worst) and said "Well you go to the HAVO" which is average. My parents did NOT sit well with that and just said "No he's going to Gymniasum (highest possible class with Latin/Greek) whether you want it or not. We all know he just screwed up there on that one tests because you explained him the instructions wrong." Anyway, 11 years later and I'm doing a PhD in applied mathematics. I'm really happy my parents fought for me to go to Gymnasium and I'm so glad the advice isn't binding. I'm not sure whether it still isn't binding or they changed it somehow. [1] The instructor told us that "at the end of your test you will have time to finish your questions". So what stupid little me did was I made half the test, then I waited till the time ran out and when they took my paper I asked "can I finish the questions now?" And they just took my paper away.