8 ms·

The most interesting part is the way they are planning on tackling fragmentation in O onwards with Project Treble [0] If your device ships with O it should be

by dcomp 9y ago

The most interesting part is the way they are planning on tackling fragmentation in O onwards with Project Treble [0] If your device ships with O it should be running an immutable semantically versioned HAL. In essence you should be able to be able to flash AOSP on every new device. No matter what the vendor does. Edit: I can see it now, in the technical specs of each device you will see a list of HAL Versions. The newer your HAL the longer you can expect support from AOSP if not your vendor. [0] http://androidbackstage.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/episode-75-project-treble-for-hal-of-it.html http://androidbackstage.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/episode-75-pr...

pedrocr 9y ago
So you'll still be vulnerable to kernel bugs but most everything else will get regular updates? A bit better I suppose.
- kbenson 9y ago
  I think the idea is that you can update the HAL portion as well, and the system on top of it can be verified to have not problems with that HAL independently (and you can wait for that or or just update the HAL as available if you think it's important enough). Since it's semantically versioned, you can theoretically have fairly high assurance of what updates might cause problems and what should purely fix a bug that doesn't affect normal functionality.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- on_and_off 9y ago
  Actually it also helps for this. O standardize how HAL interfaces between the framework and the low level vendor implementation. So you can update either, as long as the interface contract is respected, it should be transparent. It is of course more work for Google since the framework will need to keep supporting old version of this interface but that's a necessary evolution.
pishpash 9y ago
Have we reinvented Windows CE yet?
djsumdog 9y ago
huh .. I always suspected Fuchsia/Magenta were going to be a basis for Android going forward to get around the fragmentation situation. They still could be in the future, since no one is really sure what they're being developed for.
- jdc0589 9y ago
  i haven't read up on fuchsia/magenta too much yet, but my impression is that it's going to be a much larger shift in general. If Google can take some less drastic strides to fix this problem before a huge change like fuchsia, theres probably a better chance for an easy(er) transition.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    There cannot exist an easy transition because they are completely different, Java/Kotlin/C++ vs Dart for user space, Linux vs Magenta for the kernel and drivers.
    - jdc0589 9y ago
      this is why I should stop commenting I stuff I haven't gotten super familiar with. I didn't know Dart was the choice for user space. I suppose they could theoretically include an compatibility layer for java/kotlin userspace apps, but that seems like a lot of baggage depending on what the real goal is.
sitepodmatt 9y ago
Android have been promising to finally tackle fragmentation in every release since KitKat. It seems people have a very short memory.
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  While I agree with the skepticism because, frankly, Google can not be trusted to deliver on most product promises they make... ... they have gotten better at this.
- robert_foss 9y ago
  The code speaks for itself. Any Android implementation is now split in two halfs, one which is easily replaced and one which is not. If vendors choose to not use this feature it is on them.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Actually since Google is still allowing customizations, it will hardly change anything.
    - ndesaulniers 9y ago
      Actually, this is not an allowed customization.
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        Then spend one hour of your life listening to ADB Podcast, where Android team explicitly states that, saying that they don't want to encumber the work of them creating unique experiences. http://androidbackstage.blogspot.de/2017/08/episode-75-project-treble-for-hal-of-it.html http://androidbackstage.blogspot.de/2017/08/episode-75-proje...
        ndesaulniers 9y ago
        I sit next to Iliyan; I mentioned your comment to him and he chuckled.
frik 9y ago
"WiFi Assistant Auto-connects you to high quality open WiFi and secures your connection with a VPN back to Google." Let's hope the VPN can be set to non-Google too, or it's optional or opt-out feature.
- jfim 9y ago
  You can already have an always-on third party VPN that has nothing to do with Google. This is just a feature that was on some phones that's rolled out to the base OS now. It's opt in AFAICR, there's a prompt to enable it when you first boot the phone.
  - notatoad 9y ago
    It's not when you first boot, it's when you first connect to an unsecured public wifi network. the opt-in is per-network, not just a single opt-in. and it's not rolled into the base OS either, it's part of "google connectivity services" which is distributed separately.
Vinnl 9y ago
As someone who knows nothing about this, I wonder (and hope) if this is helpful for UBPorts/Halium. https://ubports.com/ https://ubports.com/ https://halium.org/ https://halium.org/
- moosingin3space 9y ago
  Intuitively, it seems that it would be since it provides a HAL that these projects can target.
DCKing 9y ago
I'm very skeptical of the level of optimism that is thrown towards Project Treble. In the end it's just a way to make OEM's lives easier while developing updates. It will still require them to actually make updates for devices. Despite Project Treble they will still not have an economic incentive to update devices. And that is the core issue here, really. My expectation is that Project Treble will help speeding up Android updates - they should come to devices sooner than they are released now, because Treble shortens the development process of updates. I don't expect devices to be updated any longer than they are now, or receive much more updates. OEMs will remain economically unpunished for not updating and likely will just pocket the money saved in the development process. The only way to solve this problem is to build a "Windows Update for Android" whereby system components are updated in a modular and OEM independent way. The fundamental issue in Android's update problem is that OEMs are fully responsible for device updates and not motivated to do this job well, and Project Treble does not signficantly change this [1]. Don't get me wrong, Project Treble is a great move for Android. I however don't think it will make a huge difference in the Android update story. [1]: EDIT: it's worth pointing out that Project Treble looks like a necessary move to make a "Windows Update for Android" happen though. Let's see if that becomes a reality.
- mariusmg 9y ago
  >and Project Treble does not signficantly change this This hits the nail on the head. ProjectTreble thing will make no significant change in the long run. OEMs don't care about updating Android, they only care about selling hardware and developing shitty custom launchers. Google is the only one that could change this. They could "tie" the Android licensing (Play Store and their custom bits) to forcing the OEM to release n major version updates . But they won't do this because it will hurt them financially (less licenses sold in the long run..)
  - DCKing 9y ago
    To be honest, I think Google has LG, HTC, Sony, Nokia, Lenovorola, and almost every other Android manufacturer in the pocket here. These companies don't have the capabilities to independently make a competitive OS and app ecosystem and will have to comply with Google wherever it goes. With the exception of LG, all of these companies have even significantly dialed down their efforts to customize Android from AOSP or "Google's Android flavour" (that ships on Pixels) in the first place. However, when Google would make such a move then they will see Samsung leave immediately and Huawei shortly thereafter. And Samsung makes 50% of Android devices - it will be a very hard business decision to justify destroying their ties with Samsung over device updates [1]. Note that Samsung periodically trots out their Tizen operating system to remind everybody that they can be independent of Android should they want to. Huawei will probably just fork Android and attempt to maintain their own app store. The Android device market is rife with politics and the consumer is mostly on the short of the stick for it. And Apple is the real winner there - they can sell more expensive devices because people are rightly happy to pay a premium not to deal with Android's bullshit. [1]: Ironically, Samsung is likely the best Android OEM for device updates - if and only if you consider their high end Galaxy S and Galaxy Note lines. The real issue is that Samsung wants to also flood the market with cheap crappy devices and never update them - and will likely happily ditch Android for Tizen to continue to do so.

by dcomp 9y ago

pedrocr 9y ago

So you'll still be vulnerable to kernel bugs but most everything else will get regular updates? A bit better I suppose.

kbenson 9y ago
I think the idea is that you can update the HAL portion as well, and the system on top of it can be verified to have not problems with that HAL independently (and you can wait for that or or just update the HAL as available if you think it's important enough). Since it's semantically versioned, you can theoretically have fairly high assurance of what updates might cause problems and what should purely fix a bug that doesn't affect normal functionality.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
on_and_off 9y ago
Actually it also helps for this. O standardize how HAL interfaces between the framework and the low level vendor implementation. So you can update either, as long as the interface contract is respected, it should be transparent. It is of course more work for Google since the framework will need to keep supporting old version of this interface but that's a necessary evolution.

pishpash 9y ago

Have we reinvented Windows CE yet?

djsumdog 9y ago

huh .. I always suspected Fuchsia/Magenta were going to be a basis for Android going forward to get around the fragmentation situation. They still could be in the future, since no one is really sure what they're being developed for.

jdc0589 9y ago
i haven't read up on fuchsia/magenta too much yet, but my impression is that it's going to be a much larger shift in general. If Google can take some less drastic strides to fix this problem before a huge change like fuchsia, theres probably a better chance for an easy(er) transition.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  There cannot exist an easy transition because they are completely different, Java/Kotlin/C++ vs Dart for user space, Linux vs Magenta for the kernel and drivers.
  - jdc0589 9y ago
    this is why I should stop commenting I stuff I haven't gotten super familiar with. I didn't know Dart was the choice for user space. I suppose they could theoretically include an compatibility layer for java/kotlin userspace apps, but that seems like a lot of baggage depending on what the real goal is.

sitepodmatt 9y ago

Android have been promising to finally tackle fragmentation in every release since KitKat. It seems people have a very short memory.

abritinthebay 9y ago
While I agree with the skepticism because, frankly, Google can not be trusted to deliver on most product promises they make... ... they have gotten better at this.
robert_foss 9y ago
The code speaks for itself. Any Android implementation is now split in two halfs, one which is easily replaced and one which is not. If vendors choose to not use this feature it is on them.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Actually since Google is still allowing customizations, it will hardly change anything.
  - ndesaulniers 9y ago
    Actually, this is not an allowed customization.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Then spend one hour of your life listening to ADB Podcast, where Android team explicitly states that, saying that they don't want to encumber the work of them creating unique experiences. http://androidbackstage.blogspot.de/2017/08/episode-75-project-treble-for-hal-of-it.html http://androidbackstage.blogspot.de/2017/08/episode-75-proje...
      - ndesaulniers 9y ago
        I sit next to Iliyan; I mentioned your comment to him and he chuckled.

frik 9y ago

"WiFi Assistant Auto-connects you to high quality open WiFi and secures your connection with a VPN back to Google." Let's hope the VPN can be set to non-Google too, or it's optional or opt-out feature.

jfim 9y ago
You can already have an always-on third party VPN that has nothing to do with Google. This is just a feature that was on some phones that's rolled out to the base OS now. It's opt in AFAICR, there's a prompt to enable it when you first boot the phone.
- notatoad 9y ago
  It's not when you first boot, it's when you first connect to an unsecured public wifi network. the opt-in is per-network, not just a single opt-in. and it's not rolled into the base OS either, it's part of "google connectivity services" which is distributed separately.

Vinnl 9y ago

As someone who knows nothing about this, I wonder (and hope) if this is helpful for UBPorts/Halium. https://ubports.com/ https://ubports.com/ https://halium.org/ https://halium.org/

moosingin3space 9y ago
Intuitively, it seems that it would be since it provides a HAL that these projects can target.

DCKing 9y ago

I'm very skeptical of the level of optimism that is thrown towards Project Treble. In the end it's just a way to make OEM's lives easier while developing updates. It will still require them to actually make updates for devices. Despite Project Treble they will still not have an economic incentive to update devices. And that is the core issue here, really. My expectation is that Project Treble will help speeding up Android updates - they should come to devices sooner than they are released now, because Treble shortens the development process of updates. I don't expect devices to be updated any longer than they are now, or receive much more updates. OEMs will remain economically unpunished for not updating and likely will just pocket the money saved in the development process. The only way to solve this problem is to build a "Windows Update for Android" whereby system components are updated in a modular and OEM independent way. The fundamental issue in Android's update problem is that OEMs are fully responsible for device updates and not motivated to do this job well, and Project Treble does not signficantly change this [1]. Don't get me wrong, Project Treble is a great move for Android. I however don't think it will make a huge difference in the Android update story. [1]: EDIT: it's worth pointing out that Project Treble looks like a necessary move to make a "Windows Update for Android" happen though. Let's see if that becomes a reality.

mariusmg 9y ago
>and Project Treble does not signficantly change this This hits the nail on the head. ProjectTreble thing will make no significant change in the long run. OEMs don't care about updating Android, they only care about selling hardware and developing shitty custom launchers. Google is the only one that could change this. They could "tie" the Android licensing (Play Store and their custom bits) to forcing the OEM to release n major version updates . But they won't do this because it will hurt them financially (less licenses sold in the long run..)
- DCKing 9y ago
  To be honest, I think Google has LG, HTC, Sony, Nokia, Lenovorola, and almost every other Android manufacturer in the pocket here. These companies don't have the capabilities to independently make a competitive OS and app ecosystem and will have to comply with Google wherever it goes. With the exception of LG, all of these companies have even significantly dialed down their efforts to customize Android from AOSP or "Google's Android flavour" (that ships on Pixels) in the first place. However, when Google would make such a move then they will see Samsung leave immediately and Huawei shortly thereafter. And Samsung makes 50% of Android devices - it will be a very hard business decision to justify destroying their ties with Samsung over device updates [1]. Note that Samsung periodically trots out their Tizen operating system to remind everybody that they can be independent of Android should they want to. Huawei will probably just fork Android and attempt to maintain their own app store. The Android device market is rife with politics and the consumer is mostly on the short of the stick for it. And Apple is the real winner there - they can sell more expensive devices because people are rightly happy to pay a premium not to deal with Android's bullshit. [1]: Ironically, Samsung is likely the best Android OEM for device updates - if and only if you consider their high end Galaxy S and Galaxy Note lines. The real issue is that Samsung wants to also flood the market with cheap crappy devices and never update them - and will likely happily ditch Android for Tizen to continue to do so.