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[I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor, a coding bootcamp.] Your comment defines a trade skill as one "that most anyone should be able to learn in several months wit

[I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor, a coding bootcamp.] Your comment defines a trade skill as one "that most anyone should be able to learn in several months without a general STEM education". So, let's evaluate that question for a few different trades/professions. "Software Engineering": We have determined, through experimental proof, that bootcamps can make (some) novice non-degree-holders into employable software engineers in 3 months. Probably 3-18 months would cover most people that would otherwise be entering college in a CS major. At parties I like to ask people how long it would take to teach someone to do their job. (Posit that they're smart and interested.) For most white-collar jobs, people answer "6-18 months". Most trade schools are somewhere in that region as well. In my opinion, most professions would be well-served by the bootcamp model (like software engineering is) and a 6-18 month training period. So per your definition, I would say there are few professions out there, if any.

eropple 9y ago
> We have determined, through experimental proof, that bootcamps can make (some) novice non-degree-holders into employable software engineers in 3 months Engineers or developers? How can you differentiate? I've been writing code for about twenty-two years now (fifteen getting paid for it), I build large systems with tight fault tolerances and work to deeply understand my failure cases. Your "6-18 months" is probably enough to make a code grinder. I wouldn't say twenty years, with current tools and current culture, has made me an engineer.
- ringaroundthetx 9y ago
  > Engineers or developers? > Code grinder Well those semantical terms won't get you anywhere. There isn't a difference which will reach consensus. But alas, I see the root of your argument. Universities aren't teaching people to be great for corporate America, despite how warped that ideal of higher learning has become. Coding schools are sticking to what is relevant for current roles. Many of the coding schools already know what the current roles are and act as glorified recruiters making the bulk of their earnings on the placement of their students in roles they have already lined up. Being productive in a corporate environment doesn't take much time at the right level of the stack.
  - eropple 9y ago
    > Being productive in a corporate environment doesn't take much time at the right level of the stack. I fully agree, and I think that's a great job to teach to and for people to have. I think conflating it with this-had-better-frigging-work engineering is dangerous to both the profession and the people who trust us to do good work for them (both as employers/clients and as a society). Engineer means something. Hell, I build systems expecting them to fail and I understand how to proof them, to the best of my time/cost allowances, against failure. I'm still not "an engineer". And--and this is important--I am also not held liable like one.
    - lovich 9y ago
      I get and even agree with your point, but that distinction already doesn't exist in current software engineering. Unless there is some sort of rules and/or punishment against calling something engineering when its not, like being responsible for failures the same way the guys who engineer bridges are responsible, then its just gonna be meaningless words. I have seen companies convert people from "Software Developer" to "Software Engineer" just to make them happier without a raise. If it actually meant something we wouldn't have the industry standard interview consisting of seeing if you can do basic comp sci algorithms either. As far as I am aware other engineering disciplines don't get asked to whiteboard something like calculus to see if they can do the basics when they go for a new job
      - eropple 9y ago
        Choosing to make a muddy distinction worse because "everyone does it" is not really deserving of applause, is it? I mean--words mean things. (And, to that end, I do think that the word "engineer" should be federally protected to distinguish us idiots from professional engineers.) And, yes, the tire fire that is interviewing is a large part of this.
        lovich 9y ago
        I don't mean to muddy it, its already muddied. Saying someone is a lawyer is easy, if they passed the bar they are a lawyer. If someone has a medical license they are a doctor. There is no equivalent for software engineering. If you got 20 software engineers in a room you'd end up with 25 definitions for what a software engineer is. A good portion of the software community does not want a governing body over the industry. If we are going to accept that, then we also need to accept that titles are meaningless because there are no standards.
- KGIII 9y ago
  I appreciate your comment. Call me when you're willing to sign off on your code as doing only what it is meant to do, and no more. Call me when you can demonstrate that your code functions all the time, every time. This is not denigration. I have worked with real engineers that wrote code. Sign off on it, and I will listen.
elipsey 9y ago
Thanks for this. I can see where I'm making some unconsidered assumptions about what a trade (or profession) is. Also, I guess I could probably have shaved off a few months by skipping music appreciation, and so on. :)
bdcravens 9y ago
I understand calling someone an engineer is critical to your marketing, but they aren't engineers. Teaching someone a framework isn't teaching them any form of engineering. It's teaching them to be an employable technician. Engineering is teaching from first principles. A good rule of thumb: can they do their job if Stackoverflow.com is blocked at the corporate firewall?
- Raphmedia 9y ago
  In Canada it is illegal to practice engineering, or use the title "professional engineer" or "engineer", without a license. For example, after complaints were lodged by the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers, a court in Quebec fined Microsoft Canada $1,000 for misusing the "engineer" title by referring to MCSE graduates as engineers.
  - majormjr 9y ago
    The 'Professional Engineer' title is regulated but there is some doubt with the plain 'Engineer' title. It also varies depending on each province Microsoft was fined but still hasn't changed their certificate titles, and this fined was levied in 2004. So it shows that enforcement of this is spotty at best.
    - derekp7 9y ago
      The title of the page at https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/learning/mcse-certification.aspx https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/learning/mcse-certification.... is "Microft Certified Solutions Expert".
    - bdcravens 9y ago
      Microsoft ended the MCSE (replacing it with MCITP) and then brought it back without the "engineer" title in 2012.
- jnbiche 9y ago
  All in all, I agree. However, I'm a self-taught software developer who could do (and frequently do do) my job without Stackoverflow.com. Furthermore, given enough time, I'm also confident I could build from scratch any of the frameworks I use on a day-to-day basis. And yet I would not consider myself a software engineer (even though I've held that job title). The more I learn about serious computer science and engineering work, the more I realize that I can't do that kind of work with any degree of fluency...yet. I'm continuing to work (slowly) toward that direction. But I've also realized that relatively few software developer jobs actually require these skills. Nonetheless, I am a very solid software developer, who can built robust, correct, and reliable software. Actually, I think "software technician" is a great name for bootcamp graduates to hold. It perfectly captures the level of training they've finished.

eropple 9y ago

> We have determined, through experimental proof, that bootcamps can make (some) novice non-degree-holders into employable software engineers in 3 months Engineers or developers? How can you differentiate? I've been writing code for about twenty-two years now (fifteen getting paid for it), I build large systems with tight fault tolerances and work to deeply understand my failure cases. Your "6-18 months" is probably enough to make a code grinder. I wouldn't say twenty years, with current tools and current culture, has made me an engineer.

ringaroundthetx 9y ago
> Engineers or developers? > Code grinder Well those semantical terms won't get you anywhere. There isn't a difference which will reach consensus. But alas, I see the root of your argument. Universities aren't teaching people to be great for corporate America, despite how warped that ideal of higher learning has become. Coding schools are sticking to what is relevant for current roles. Many of the coding schools already know what the current roles are and act as glorified recruiters making the bulk of their earnings on the placement of their students in roles they have already lined up. Being productive in a corporate environment doesn't take much time at the right level of the stack.
- eropple 9y ago
  > Being productive in a corporate environment doesn't take much time at the right level of the stack. I fully agree, and I think that's a great job to teach to and for people to have. I think conflating it with this-had-better-frigging-work engineering is dangerous to both the profession and the people who trust us to do good work for them (both as employers/clients and as a society). Engineer means something. Hell, I build systems expecting them to fail and I understand how to proof them, to the best of my time/cost allowances, against failure. I'm still not "an engineer". And--and this is important--I am also not held liable like one.
  - lovich 9y ago
    I get and even agree with your point, but that distinction already doesn't exist in current software engineering. Unless there is some sort of rules and/or punishment against calling something engineering when its not, like being responsible for failures the same way the guys who engineer bridges are responsible, then its just gonna be meaningless words. I have seen companies convert people from "Software Developer" to "Software Engineer" just to make them happier without a raise. If it actually meant something we wouldn't have the industry standard interview consisting of seeing if you can do basic comp sci algorithms either. As far as I am aware other engineering disciplines don't get asked to whiteboard something like calculus to see if they can do the basics when they go for a new job
    - eropple 9y ago
      Choosing to make a muddy distinction worse because "everyone does it" is not really deserving of applause, is it? I mean--words mean things. (And, to that end, I do think that the word "engineer" should be federally protected to distinguish us idiots from professional engineers.) And, yes, the tire fire that is interviewing is a large part of this.
      - lovich 9y ago
        I don't mean to muddy it, its already muddied. Saying someone is a lawyer is easy, if they passed the bar they are a lawyer. If someone has a medical license they are a doctor. There is no equivalent for software engineering. If you got 20 software engineers in a room you'd end up with 25 definitions for what a software engineer is. A good portion of the software community does not want a governing body over the industry. If we are going to accept that, then we also need to accept that titles are meaningless because there are no standards.
KGIII 9y ago
I appreciate your comment. Call me when you're willing to sign off on your code as doing only what it is meant to do, and no more. Call me when you can demonstrate that your code functions all the time, every time. This is not denigration. I have worked with real engineers that wrote code. Sign off on it, and I will listen.

elipsey 9y ago

Thanks for this. I can see where I'm making some unconsidered assumptions about what a trade (or profession) is. Also, I guess I could probably have shaved off a few months by skipping music appreciation, and so on. :)

bdcravens 9y ago

I understand calling someone an engineer is critical to your marketing, but they aren't engineers. Teaching someone a framework isn't teaching them any form of engineering. It's teaching them to be an employable technician. Engineering is teaching from first principles. A good rule of thumb: can they do their job if Stackoverflow.com is blocked at the corporate firewall?

Raphmedia 9y ago
In Canada it is illegal to practice engineering, or use the title "professional engineer" or "engineer", without a license. For example, after complaints were lodged by the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers, a court in Quebec fined Microsoft Canada $1,000 for misusing the "engineer" title by referring to MCSE graduates as engineers.
- majormjr 9y ago
  The 'Professional Engineer' title is regulated but there is some doubt with the plain 'Engineer' title. It also varies depending on each province Microsoft was fined but still hasn't changed their certificate titles, and this fined was levied in 2004. So it shows that enforcement of this is spotty at best.
  - derekp7 9y ago
    The title of the page at https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/learning/mcse-certification.aspx https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/learning/mcse-certification.... is "Microft Certified Solutions Expert".
  - bdcravens 9y ago
    Microsoft ended the MCSE (replacing it with MCITP) and then brought it back without the "engineer" title in 2012.
jnbiche 9y ago
All in all, I agree. However, I'm a self-taught software developer who could do (and frequently do do) my job without Stackoverflow.com. Furthermore, given enough time, I'm also confident I could build from scratch any of the frameworks I use on a day-to-day basis. And yet I would not consider myself a software engineer (even though I've held that job title). The more I learn about serious computer science and engineering work, the more I realize that I can't do that kind of work with any degree of fluency...yet. I'm continuing to work (slowly) toward that direction. But I've also realized that relatively few software developer jobs actually require these skills. Nonetheless, I am a very solid software developer, who can built robust, correct, and reliable software. Actually, I think "software technician" is a great name for bootcamp graduates to hold. It perfectly captures the level of training they've finished.