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Shaming people doesn't change their behaviors, it just hurts them and makes them hostile to you. It's always counterproductive. If you want vengeance for someth

Shaming people doesn't change their behaviors, it just hurts them and makes them hostile to you. It's always counterproductive. If you want vengeance for something there are more satisfying ways to hurt someone, if you want to cause change shame is the wrong way to go about it.

matt4077 9y ago
Shaming is a deep-seated evolutionary mechanism to somewhat gently encourage people to conform to the norms of society. It works pretty great on almost everyone. I'm also wondering why HN is having dozens of articles hit the frontpage defending white supremacists. I distinctly remember a general agreement of get-a-job when Occupy Wall Street was forced off the streets by police.
- pc86 9y ago
  Dozens of pro-white supremacist articles? Please provide links. I haven't seen a single one. And I don't know what that has to do with OWS or the feeling that they should get jobs.
  - imron 9y ago
    > Dozens of pro-white supremacist articles? Please provide links. Some people conflate defending the free speech rights of white supremacists as being pro-white supremacist.
    - pc86 9y ago
      That's why I asked for links - I simply don't believe there has been even a single pro-white supremacy article.
      - tedsanders 9y ago
        I hesitate to comment because I don't think this conversation is productive. But I'll stray in. Your request for links is strange because Matt never said there were pro-supremacy posts. He said there were posts defending white supremacists. You have conflated the two concepts.
        pc86 9y ago
        I don't take "defending white supremacists" as defending their right to free speech or to assemble peaceable (which I support). I take it as defending them, which I don't. I may be misinterpreting him for sure! That's part of why I asked.
        benchaney 9y ago
        Defending the right to free speech for everyone is not the same as defending white supremacists, so it sounds like you are the one conflating two concepts.
        tedsanders 9y ago
        My apologies if I gave you this impression. I only tried to clarify what was in Matt's post. I didn't think I was making any positive claims myself, but apparently I gave that impression. I'm sorry to have posted in this conversation and I wish I could delete my comment. I feel very sensitive to receiving downvotes.
- module0000 9y ago
  What articles? Sounds like you are trying to "shame" HN. Shame....what a state of affairs we are in. We write articles, comments, and do all sorts of things over what boils down to "hurt feelings". Grow up world, there are real problems and actual hardships that exist, and shame has never been either.
- Jonaisoi 9y ago
  I don't think its any surprise that class tensions that could have unified the lower classes have been redirected into racial/gender tensions that have us fighting...
- dang 9y ago
  That's probably sample bias, because the posts you disagree with stand out more (where by 'you' I mean everybody). There's almost no general agreement on HN. That's why the threads on divisive topics are so divisive.
Overtonwindow 9y ago
I think it's unique to America. We seem to have this fixation on righteous indignation. It's not enough that someone disagrees with you, or you get angry at someone, the indignation is so great it moves people to become vindictive and hurtful.
- nostrademons 9y ago
  Not at all unique to America. America actually falls much more on the guilt side of the guilt vs. shame-based culture spectrum. (For those unfamiliar with the difference: guilt is the emotion we feel when we've done something bad, shame is the emotion when we believe we are bad. Guilt presupposes a distinction between a person's worth and their actions, and assumes that once a person who has done bad things has repented, made amends, and is no longer doing bad things, they are no longer a bad person. Shame assumes that character is an innate personality trait, and once a bad apple, always a bad apple.) Far-eastern countries like China/Japan/Korea and honor-based cultures like the Middle East tend to be much more shame-based. It's not unheard of in America to go to prison, do their time, get out, and start a huge company (IBM, for one). Or to go bankrupt 4 times, sexually assault women, have this all highlighted on national TV, and still end up president. This would be unheard of in a culture like China, where you basically need a squeaky-clean public image (what you do in private is a different story) to get anywhere.
  - Overtonwindow 9y ago
    "sexually assault women, have this all highlighted on national TV, and still end up president. " You mean Bill Clinton? I think you're misinterpreting societal shame. Far east countries, as you call them, do have heavy shame and saving-face issues, but society as a whole recognizes that shame. In America, the shame is never-ending, and it's used as a weapon. It becomes less about a societal tool to punish bad behavior, than as a sick and twisted mechanism for one person, totally unrelated, to exact some harmful retribution.
    - nostrademons 9y ago
      The "bankrupt 4 times" part is Donald Trump, obviously. "Sexually assault women" includes a number of American presidents, including Trump, Bill Clinton, JFK, Thomas Jefferson, and likely others, though only Clinton and Trump had it paraded through the media. I'm making a general statement about who the American people are willing to elect, one which has been proven over and over again. My other point is that when it's just one person, totally unrelated, trying to exact some harmful retribution on a person, that's not shame, that's vengeance. Shaming requires enough of a consensus that you can convince a person, in their own head, that they're a bad person. And this is easier to do with some people than others: I remember being bullied extensively as a teenager until I was convinced that I was worthless as a person, while now, in my 30s, I'd just think "Wow, those were some really fucked up kids that I never want to see again in my life." But in terms of actual objective consequences to these shaming episodes, in American society - they're pretty light, as long as the victim has enough inner strength to shrug it off and just find new people. Clinton and Trump both became president. Mel Gibson and John Downey Jr. are still making movies. Brendan Eich, another prominent case of an Internet shaming mob, ended up founding Brave and raising $40M via ICO. Andrew Torba got blacklisted by YC and virtually every Silicon Valley company, but Gab is the darling of the Breitbart crowd. Like I said in another comment, no matter how offensive your views, you can always find another American who shares them.
module0000 9y ago
"Shaming" to cause change doesn't' mean the recipient of shame is the same person you are trying to change. Often shame is just a first step, the second step being mob mentality taking over and other people joining the shaming, and the "change" lies somewhere in the effect of the mob. Possibly the intended target has nothing to do with the original target, and they were only chosen because of a high probability to incite the mob mentality in others. Things are not always as simple as they seem.
charlesism 9y ago
Can a behavior really be taboo, if nobody shames people who engage in it? I agree that shaming someone probably won't change their behavior, but it definitely affects others who witness it. If we didn't have a taboo around theft and unprovoked aggression, the only thing protecting us from regular muggings would be the police. I have a feeling that wouldn't work very well.
- nostrademons 9y ago
  Check out Brene Brown's recent Facebook Live on the difference between shaming and accountability, about 16:00 in here: https://www.facebook.com/brenebrown/videos/1778878652127236/ https://www.facebook.com/brenebrown/videos/1778878652127236/ (For background...she's done about 20 years of research on shame and did a couple wildly viral TED talks.)

matt4077 9y ago

Shaming is a deep-seated evolutionary mechanism to somewhat gently encourage people to conform to the norms of society. It works pretty great on almost everyone. I'm also wondering why HN is having dozens of articles hit the frontpage defending white supremacists. I distinctly remember a general agreement of get-a-job when Occupy Wall Street was forced off the streets by police.

pc86 9y ago
Dozens of pro-white supremacist articles? Please provide links. I haven't seen a single one. And I don't know what that has to do with OWS or the feeling that they should get jobs.
- imron 9y ago
  > Dozens of pro-white supremacist articles? Please provide links. Some people conflate defending the free speech rights of white supremacists as being pro-white supremacist.
  - pc86 9y ago
    That's why I asked for links - I simply don't believe there has been even a single pro-white supremacy article.
    - tedsanders 9y ago
      I hesitate to comment because I don't think this conversation is productive. But I'll stray in. Your request for links is strange because Matt never said there were pro-supremacy posts. He said there were posts defending white supremacists. You have conflated the two concepts.
      - pc86 9y ago
        I don't take "defending white supremacists" as defending their right to free speech or to assemble peaceable (which I support). I take it as defending them, which I don't. I may be misinterpreting him for sure! That's part of why I asked.
      - benchaney 9y ago
        Defending the right to free speech for everyone is not the same as defending white supremacists, so it sounds like you are the one conflating two concepts.
        tedsanders 9y ago
        My apologies if I gave you this impression. I only tried to clarify what was in Matt's post. I didn't think I was making any positive claims myself, but apparently I gave that impression. I'm sorry to have posted in this conversation and I wish I could delete my comment. I feel very sensitive to receiving downvotes.
module0000 9y ago
What articles? Sounds like you are trying to "shame" HN. Shame....what a state of affairs we are in. We write articles, comments, and do all sorts of things over what boils down to "hurt feelings". Grow up world, there are real problems and actual hardships that exist, and shame has never been either.
Jonaisoi 9y ago
I don't think its any surprise that class tensions that could have unified the lower classes have been redirected into racial/gender tensions that have us fighting...
dang 9y ago
That's probably sample bias, because the posts you disagree with stand out more (where by 'you' I mean everybody). There's almost no general agreement on HN. That's why the threads on divisive topics are so divisive.

Overtonwindow 9y ago

I think it's unique to America. We seem to have this fixation on righteous indignation. It's not enough that someone disagrees with you, or you get angry at someone, the indignation is so great it moves people to become vindictive and hurtful.

nostrademons 9y ago
Not at all unique to America. America actually falls much more on the guilt side of the guilt vs. shame-based culture spectrum. (For those unfamiliar with the difference: guilt is the emotion we feel when we've done something bad, shame is the emotion when we believe we are bad. Guilt presupposes a distinction between a person's worth and their actions, and assumes that once a person who has done bad things has repented, made amends, and is no longer doing bad things, they are no longer a bad person. Shame assumes that character is an innate personality trait, and once a bad apple, always a bad apple.) Far-eastern countries like China/Japan/Korea and honor-based cultures like the Middle East tend to be much more shame-based. It's not unheard of in America to go to prison, do their time, get out, and start a huge company (IBM, for one). Or to go bankrupt 4 times, sexually assault women, have this all highlighted on national TV, and still end up president. This would be unheard of in a culture like China, where you basically need a squeaky-clean public image (what you do in private is a different story) to get anywhere.
- Overtonwindow 9y ago
  "sexually assault women, have this all highlighted on national TV, and still end up president. " You mean Bill Clinton? I think you're misinterpreting societal shame. Far east countries, as you call them, do have heavy shame and saving-face issues, but society as a whole recognizes that shame. In America, the shame is never-ending, and it's used as a weapon. It becomes less about a societal tool to punish bad behavior, than as a sick and twisted mechanism for one person, totally unrelated, to exact some harmful retribution.
  - nostrademons 9y ago
    The "bankrupt 4 times" part is Donald Trump, obviously. "Sexually assault women" includes a number of American presidents, including Trump, Bill Clinton, JFK, Thomas Jefferson, and likely others, though only Clinton and Trump had it paraded through the media. I'm making a general statement about who the American people are willing to elect, one which has been proven over and over again. My other point is that when it's just one person, totally unrelated, trying to exact some harmful retribution on a person, that's not shame, that's vengeance. Shaming requires enough of a consensus that you can convince a person, in their own head, that they're a bad person. And this is easier to do with some people than others: I remember being bullied extensively as a teenager until I was convinced that I was worthless as a person, while now, in my 30s, I'd just think "Wow, those were some really fucked up kids that I never want to see again in my life." But in terms of actual objective consequences to these shaming episodes, in American society - they're pretty light, as long as the victim has enough inner strength to shrug it off and just find new people. Clinton and Trump both became president. Mel Gibson and John Downey Jr. are still making movies. Brendan Eich, another prominent case of an Internet shaming mob, ended up founding Brave and raising $40M via ICO. Andrew Torba got blacklisted by YC and virtually every Silicon Valley company, but Gab is the darling of the Breitbart crowd. Like I said in another comment, no matter how offensive your views, you can always find another American who shares them.

module0000 9y ago

"Shaming" to cause change doesn't' mean the recipient of shame is the same person you are trying to change. Often shame is just a first step, the second step being mob mentality taking over and other people joining the shaming, and the "change" lies somewhere in the effect of the mob. Possibly the intended target has nothing to do with the original target, and they were only chosen because of a high probability to incite the mob mentality in others. Things are not always as simple as they seem.

charlesism 9y ago

Can a behavior really be taboo, if nobody shames people who engage in it? I agree that shaming someone probably won't change their behavior, but it definitely affects others who witness it. If we didn't have a taboo around theft and unprovoked aggression, the only thing protecting us from regular muggings would be the police. I have a feeling that wouldn't work very well.

nostrademons 9y ago
Check out Brene Brown's recent Facebook Live on the difference between shaming and accountability, about 16:00 in here: https://www.facebook.com/brenebrown/videos/1778878652127236/ https://www.facebook.com/brenebrown/videos/1778878652127236/ (For background...she's done about 20 years of research on shame and did a couple wildly viral TED talks.)