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I find nothing wrong with either approach. "Service providers" that are neutral are fine by me. Free speech - the concept, not the amendment - would not work i

I find nothing wrong with either approach. "Service providers" that are neutral are fine by me. Free speech - the concept, not the amendment - would not work in the current connected world if every service provider had to "ok" your message before it got out.

danpalmer 9y ago
True, and I'm not suggesting that service providers would have to "ok" anything. I just think it's fair for them to set terms of service that lay out what you can and can't do, and for those terms of service to have some moral backing to them, beyond simple legality. One thing I think should be differentiated though is certain types of communication channels. I think internet access should be protected for freedom of speech. Selling merchandise online though is not fundamental to that speech though and should not be protected. Similarly I don't think a domain name is a fundamental requirement (in the case of the Daily Stormer).
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  > I just think it's fair for them to set terms of service that lay out what you can and can't do, and for those terms of service to have some moral backing to them, beyond simple legality. This would make a great piece of cyberpunk dystopian fiction. Humanity in a far off future finds its codified moral compass not in religious texts, not in the spoken words of religious leaders, and certainly not in books written by philosophers. But rather, in corporate contracts copy-pasted together by Employee #5 at some hyper-growth startups during the Early Years.
mikeash 9y ago
I just wish they'd be honest about it. Shopify Payments has a long list of products they won't allow. But when it's Nazis, suddenly they're taking a principled stand that they don't pick and choose.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  What the product is, and who is selling it are entirely different aspects.
- whatshisface 9y ago
  Nazis? That's starting to become a pretty broad word. How conservative do you have to be before you become a Nazi? More importantly, how fast is the line moving?
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Last time I checked, Breitbart's Shopify store was selling items featuring the Nazi parteiadler. I don't think this is a difficult or ambiguous case.
    - whatshisface 9y ago
      Well, I had to google both the word parteialder and the brietbart store, but I found this HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13608777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13608777 So, I could argue that the fact that it is being discussed indicates that it may be a little ambiguous after all. It's worth noting that your final conclusion was that the symbol "screamed Nazi" when you saw it, and that you could understand it not being sufficient.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        Literally anything can be ambiguous when people blind themselves sufficiently. There's a gigantic debate over whether the Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery! Organizations like Breitbart thrive on "reasonable" people's willingness to give them a tremendous benefit of the doubt. They're like a little kid who lies down on top of the covers and plays with toys when you tell them to "go to bed." And a lot of people who should really know better step up and say, "technically they did what you said, I see nothing wrong with that."
        9y ago

danpalmer 9y ago

True, and I'm not suggesting that service providers would have to "ok" anything. I just think it's fair for them to set terms of service that lay out what you can and can't do, and for those terms of service to have some moral backing to them, beyond simple legality. One thing I think should be differentiated though is certain types of communication channels. I think internet access should be protected for freedom of speech. Selling merchandise online though is not fundamental to that speech though and should not be protected. Similarly I don't think a domain name is a fundamental requirement (in the case of the Daily Stormer).

throwawayjava 9y ago
> I just think it's fair for them to set terms of service that lay out what you can and can't do, and for those terms of service to have some moral backing to them, beyond simple legality. This would make a great piece of cyberpunk dystopian fiction. Humanity in a far off future finds its codified moral compass not in religious texts, not in the spoken words of religious leaders, and certainly not in books written by philosophers. But rather, in corporate contracts copy-pasted together by Employee #5 at some hyper-growth startups during the Early Years.

mikeash 9y ago

I just wish they'd be honest about it. Shopify Payments has a long list of products they won't allow. But when it's Nazis, suddenly they're taking a principled stand that they don't pick and choose.

Chris2048 9y ago
What the product is, and who is selling it are entirely different aspects.
whatshisface 9y ago
Nazis? That's starting to become a pretty broad word. How conservative do you have to be before you become a Nazi? More importantly, how fast is the line moving?
- mikeash 9y ago
  Last time I checked, Breitbart's Shopify store was selling items featuring the Nazi parteiadler. I don't think this is a difficult or ambiguous case.
  - whatshisface 9y ago
    Well, I had to google both the word parteialder and the brietbart store, but I found this HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13608777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13608777 So, I could argue that the fact that it is being discussed indicates that it may be a little ambiguous after all. It's worth noting that your final conclusion was that the symbol "screamed Nazi" when you saw it, and that you could understand it not being sufficient.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      Literally anything can be ambiguous when people blind themselves sufficiently. There's a gigantic debate over whether the Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery! Organizations like Breitbart thrive on "reasonable" people's willingness to give them a tremendous benefit of the doubt. They're like a little kid who lies down on top of the covers and plays with toys when you tell them to "go to bed." And a lot of people who should really know better step up and say, "technically they did what you said, I see nothing wrong with that."
      - 9y ago