5 ms·

As far as I know freedom of speech does not extend to hate speech does it? Blatant fake news are also not freedom of speech, are they?

docdeek 9y ago
As I understand it - at least in the US - hate speech is protected speech. Inciting someone to commit a violent act or to otherwise break the law might not be, but hate speech is protected speech.
- wellboy 9y ago
  What do nazi ideologies fall under? They are illegal in Germany and not protected by free speech no? Furthermore, why is hate speech protected by freedom of speech, is it so that dictators can't accuse people critisizing them of hate speech?
  - docdeek 9y ago
    >What do nazi ideologies fall under? They are illegal in Germany and not protected by free speech no? I believe in Germany you are correct, yes. >why is hate speech protected by freedom of speech, is it so that dictators can't accuse people critisizing them of hate speech? In a decision on a 1st Amendment case Samuel Alito wrote: "Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express “the thought that we hate.”" I see legally protecting hate speech as the 'cost' of not having someone else decide what counts as allowable speech. I live in France where there are stricter limits to speech. Quoting Wikipedia on French hate speech laws, French "laws forbid any communication which is intended to incite discrimination against, hatred of, or harm to, anyone because of his belonging or not belonging, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, or a sexual orientation, or because he or she has a handicap ." That's all well and good for me...up until the point where someone starts questioning what a nation is, for example. Or what an ethnicity is. We also can't deny crimes against humanity and genocides here. I wouldn't want to do so, but having that restriction on speech means that there is someone charged with deciding whether something rises to the point of genocide (where denial is illegal and punished by law) or 'merely' a mass killing (deny it all you like). Given the choice between the French and American laws on hate speech, I'd prefer living under the latter.
    - wellboy 9y ago
      I just had a look and in almost all western countries hate speech is forbidden based on race, sexual orientation, gender, religion and is punishable by law EXCEPT in the united states. So what does that mean? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech
      - oh_sigh 9y ago
        That the US has stronger freedom of speech protections?
  - ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
    Well Germany's free speech laws on Nazi symbols is actually so restrictive that many WWII games remove all images of the Swastika and tend to rename Hitler to something else. And it's because banning any speech is a slippery slope. Many people on reddit would make the argument supporting Trump at all is hate speech. In the US, yelling fire in a crowded theater and threats specifically against the president are I believe the only two major restricts on free speech. The question "If x isn't allowed, than why is y" would get asked constantly, so it's better to just allow it all and let society work it out.
    - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
      The "fire in a crowded theater" thing is an urban legend. It was a snippet from a ruling that has been subsequently ruled against many times in the last 100yr. Free speech in the US is basically: 1) don't do anything that would be a slam-dunk defamation lawsuit. 2) don't tell people to commit crimes 3) don't try to play technicality games with the above rules (e.g. "I only said I wish X were dead, not that my followers should murder X). Following those rules doesn't necessarily mean someone won't try to harass you via the courts but that happens for all sorts of issues not related to free speech as well.

docdeek 9y ago

As I understand it - at least in the US - hate speech is protected speech. Inciting someone to commit a violent act or to otherwise break the law might not be, but hate speech is protected speech.

wellboy 9y ago
What do nazi ideologies fall under? They are illegal in Germany and not protected by free speech no? Furthermore, why is hate speech protected by freedom of speech, is it so that dictators can't accuse people critisizing them of hate speech?
- docdeek 9y ago
  >What do nazi ideologies fall under? They are illegal in Germany and not protected by free speech no? I believe in Germany you are correct, yes. >why is hate speech protected by freedom of speech, is it so that dictators can't accuse people critisizing them of hate speech? In a decision on a 1st Amendment case Samuel Alito wrote: "Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express “the thought that we hate.”" I see legally protecting hate speech as the 'cost' of not having someone else decide what counts as allowable speech. I live in France where there are stricter limits to speech. Quoting Wikipedia on French hate speech laws, French "laws forbid any communication which is intended to incite discrimination against, hatred of, or harm to, anyone because of his belonging or not belonging, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, or a sexual orientation, or because he or she has a handicap ." That's all well and good for me...up until the point where someone starts questioning what a nation is, for example. Or what an ethnicity is. We also can't deny crimes against humanity and genocides here. I wouldn't want to do so, but having that restriction on speech means that there is someone charged with deciding whether something rises to the point of genocide (where denial is illegal and punished by law) or 'merely' a mass killing (deny it all you like). Given the choice between the French and American laws on hate speech, I'd prefer living under the latter.
  - wellboy 9y ago
    I just had a look and in almost all western countries hate speech is forbidden based on race, sexual orientation, gender, religion and is punishable by law EXCEPT in the united states. So what does that mean? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech
    - oh_sigh 9y ago
      That the US has stronger freedom of speech protections?
- ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
  Well Germany's free speech laws on Nazi symbols is actually so restrictive that many WWII games remove all images of the Swastika and tend to rename Hitler to something else. And it's because banning any speech is a slippery slope. Many people on reddit would make the argument supporting Trump at all is hate speech. In the US, yelling fire in a crowded theater and threats specifically against the president are I believe the only two major restricts on free speech. The question "If x isn't allowed, than why is y" would get asked constantly, so it's better to just allow it all and let society work it out.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    The "fire in a crowded theater" thing is an urban legend. It was a snippet from a ruling that has been subsequently ruled against many times in the last 100yr. Free speech in the US is basically: 1) don't do anything that would be a slam-dunk defamation lawsuit. 2) don't tell people to commit crimes 3) don't try to play technicality games with the above rules (e.g. "I only said I wish X were dead, not that my followers should murder X). Following those rules doesn't necessarily mean someone won't try to harass you via the courts but that happens for all sorts of issues not related to free speech as well.