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> Protectionism that prevents lowering of wages too much This is a really weird complaint from somebody who is (presumably) a developer. [If parent commenter i

> Protectionism that prevents lowering of wages too much This is a really weird complaint from somebody who is (presumably) a developer. [If parent commenter is an owner or executive, then it makes more sense] Are there other industries where workers actively disdain proposals to secure better treatment at the hands of owners?

balfirevic 9y ago
Is it so weird that somebody would oppose what they (apparently) consider unethical practice, even if it would benefit them?
- sattoshi 9y ago
  Yes. And any more of this mindset could lead us into a functional democracy. Unacceptable.
- jazzyk 9y ago
  So importing cheap labor is ethical, opposing that practice - is not ethical?
  - balfirevic 9y ago
    I don't really understand what you're asking, but note that I did not even address what is "actually" ethical or not in my comment. I simply stated that it is not weird (and should actually be expected), that somebody opposes some practice they find unethical even if the practice would benefit them. Honestly, what's weird is that what I'm saying is even remotely controversial.
    - jazzyk 9y ago
      Your statement would have been non-controversial if it had not been made in the context of the parent statements. But it was contextual.
  - aianus 9y ago
    Yes? Paying someone with American citizenship more than someone with Chinese citizenship for the same work should be regarded as unethical as paying a man more than a woman or a white person more than a black person.
    - crdoconnor 9y ago
      Is your contention that it is racist for the American government to prioritize the needs of citizens who vote for it and live under its laws over the citizens who don't?
      - aianus 9y ago
        American is not a race so it's not racist, no. But I do feel that it's wrong to restrict the supply of foreign programmers so that an engineer in Silicon Valley can earn $200k instead of 'only' $150k. The average SV programmer is already in the global 0.1%, they don't need protectionism.
        crdoconnor 9y ago
        >But I do feel that it's wrong to restrict the supply of foreign programmers so that an engineer in Silicon Valley can earn $200k instead of 'only' $150k. Do you feel that Yelp paying $200k rather than $150k is a greater injustice than poorer countries footing the bill for educating their best and brightest only to see their best and brightest flee to San Francisco because domestic companies cannot compete with 'only $150k'?
        aianus 9y ago
        The injustice is not (just) Yelp paying $200k instead of $150k, it's an engineer in India with the same skillset earning $30k. Or any number of projects not being undertaken at all because the return is less than $200k. I don't know what the solution to education financing would be in this scenario; perhaps something like Singapore's Tuition Grant Agreement obligating students to stay in-country or pay a big penalty to leave.
- awinder 9y ago
  If you were ethically opposed to all forms of wage manipulation, this would be an extremely minor factor to get hung up on in the grand scheme of things. So to that point yes, he’s correct, it would be weird.
Bartweiss 9y ago
> Are there other industries where workers actively disdain proposals to secure better treatment at the hands of owners? Sure, every market crash there's one story or another about employees desperately fighting their unions for a worse deal so they can stay employed, while the union insists that all staff get high salaries, but also the newest hires get fired outright. Higher wages aren't bad, but a fairly serious issue with unions is that they're not very rational when it comes to the health of the 'parent' organization. I suspect that it'd become much more relevant in software, where companies often have rapid growth and short lifespans.
smsm42 9y ago
Yes. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-uaw-mississippi-nissan-idUSKBN1AL02O https://www.reuters.com/article/us-uaw-mississippi-nissan-id... As for wages, I am not seeing developers working at hunger wages right now. Giving some bureaucratic body control over who is employed and on what conditions under the guise that only these people can figure out how to get better treatment and people themselves can't - doesn't sound like a winning proposition now.

balfirevic 9y ago

Is it so weird that somebody would oppose what they (apparently) consider unethical practice, even if it would benefit them?

sattoshi 9y ago
Yes. And any more of this mindset could lead us into a functional democracy. Unacceptable.
jazzyk 9y ago
So importing cheap labor is ethical, opposing that practice - is not ethical?
- balfirevic 9y ago
  I don't really understand what you're asking, but note that I did not even address what is "actually" ethical or not in my comment. I simply stated that it is not weird (and should actually be expected), that somebody opposes some practice they find unethical even if the practice would benefit them. Honestly, what's weird is that what I'm saying is even remotely controversial.
  - jazzyk 9y ago
    Your statement would have been non-controversial if it had not been made in the context of the parent statements. But it was contextual.
- aianus 9y ago
  Yes? Paying someone with American citizenship more than someone with Chinese citizenship for the same work should be regarded as unethical as paying a man more than a woman or a white person more than a black person.
  - crdoconnor 9y ago
    Is your contention that it is racist for the American government to prioritize the needs of citizens who vote for it and live under its laws over the citizens who don't?
    - aianus 9y ago
      American is not a race so it's not racist, no. But I do feel that it's wrong to restrict the supply of foreign programmers so that an engineer in Silicon Valley can earn $200k instead of 'only' $150k. The average SV programmer is already in the global 0.1%, they don't need protectionism.
      - crdoconnor 9y ago
        >But I do feel that it's wrong to restrict the supply of foreign programmers so that an engineer in Silicon Valley can earn $200k instead of 'only' $150k. Do you feel that Yelp paying $200k rather than $150k is a greater injustice than poorer countries footing the bill for educating their best and brightest only to see their best and brightest flee to San Francisco because domestic companies cannot compete with 'only $150k'?
        aianus 9y ago
        The injustice is not (just) Yelp paying $200k instead of $150k, it's an engineer in India with the same skillset earning $30k. Or any number of projects not being undertaken at all because the return is less than $200k. I don't know what the solution to education financing would be in this scenario; perhaps something like Singapore's Tuition Grant Agreement obligating students to stay in-country or pay a big penalty to leave.
awinder 9y ago
If you were ethically opposed to all forms of wage manipulation, this would be an extremely minor factor to get hung up on in the grand scheme of things. So to that point yes, he’s correct, it would be weird.

Bartweiss 9y ago

> Are there other industries where workers actively disdain proposals to secure better treatment at the hands of owners? Sure, every market crash there's one story or another about employees desperately fighting their unions for a worse deal so they can stay employed, while the union insists that all staff get high salaries, but also the newest hires get fired outright. Higher wages aren't bad, but a fairly serious issue with unions is that they're not very rational when it comes to the health of the 'parent' organization. I suspect that it'd become much more relevant in software, where companies often have rapid growth and short lifespans.

smsm42 9y ago

Yes. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-uaw-mississippi-nissan-idUSKBN1AL02O https://www.reuters.com/article/us-uaw-mississippi-nissan-id... As for wages, I am not seeing developers working at hunger wages right now. Giving some bureaucratic body control over who is employed and on what conditions under the guise that only these people can figure out how to get better treatment and people themselves can't - doesn't sound like a winning proposition now.