5 ms·

> It was going to be a totally new way of delivering software on the fly over the network That sounds really interesting! Has any documentation survived about

by SCdF 9y ago

> It was going to be a totally new way of delivering software on the fly over the network That sounds really interesting! Has any documentation survived about that?

rsynnott 9y ago
Lots. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_applet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_applet and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Web_Start https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Web_Start for links.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  You forgot Jini, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jini Also Oberon was another system that also allowed for something like Java applets, called Juice. http://www.modulaware.com/mdlt69.htm http://www.modulaware.com/mdlt69.htm
  - rsynnott 9y ago
    Ugh, yes, so I did, though that was less about software deployment.
    - le-mark 9y ago
      None of these examples are especially illuminating here. In my opinion, two things really exhibit this "code over the network" nature; the class URLClassloader that's been in Java forever and the JVM SecurityManager system. URLClassLoader will load bytecode from any url; give it a url to a jar at some domain and it'll load it. The JVM security model was intended to let app developers define exactly what code could be executed, and what resources could be accessed on the client machine. The other stuff like JNI (a registry for RPC endpoints) and java rmi itself were baked into the standard libraries from the beginning as well. But the envisioned "software agents running on arbitrary machines on the network" never took off, seems kind of foolhardy in hindsight, that anyone would think that's a good idea.
      - kuschku 9y ago
        > The other stuff like JNI (a registry for RPC endpoints) and java rmi itself were baked into the standard libraries from the beginning as well. But the envisioned "software agents running on arbitrary machines on the network" never took off, seems kind of foolhardy in hindsight, that anyone would think that's a good idea. Well, we’re back to it with webassembly now. Everything old is new again.
      - gaius 9y ago
        software agents running on arbitrary machines on the network" never took off, seems kind of foolhardy in hindsight We call software agents "containers" now and arbitrary machines on the network "cloud" but it is the same thing...
        le-mark 9y ago
        That's really not even closely related. Please educate yourself so I can have intelligent discussions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_agent
  - gaius 9y ago
    And Marimba Castanet
    - vram22 9y ago
      And somewhat less well known, probably, but cool and potentially useful, nonetheless: ObjectSpace Voyager. It was a framework for mobile code / agents / distributed computing. I tried it out a bit, liked it. ObjectSpace were also the company that came out with JGL - the Java Generics Library, a commercial library for generics in Java, some time before Java itself got generics or even before the Java Collections API came out. I think JGL was inspired by C++'s STL (Standard Template Library).
      - jazzyk 9y ago
        ObjectSpace Voyager was a supremely well designed piece of software - it made complicated things simple. It was also a bit ahead of the time, or perhaps not marketed well.
        vram22 9y ago
        >It was also a bit ahead of the time, or perhaps not marketed well. Yes, probably, and that may be why it did not take off more. It would have been great if it had survived and grown. Could do interesting stuff with it. Graham Glass, who was recently or is still running edu20.org / NEO LMS (an e-learning company and product) was involved with ObjectSpace, Voyager, Electric XML and WebMethods. IIRC he was the CTO of ObjectSpace and then WebMethods. He's an acquaintance of mine and a very accomplished person.
  - vram22 9y ago
    Also Java RMI, Remote Method Invocation, which was an OO RPC API for Java, and the basis for higher layers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_remote_method_invocation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_remote_method_invocation
- gozur88 9y ago
  Java Web Start is still really useful for desktop applications in the corporate setting, though Oracle isn't putting much effort into it.
grey-area 9y ago
There were quite a few articles about Java in 90s Wired (which, like Java, was considered cool for a brief moment in the 90s). https://www.wired.com/1995/12/java-saga/ https://www.wired.com/1995/12/java-saga/ https://www.wired.com/1998/02/java-talk-with-gosling/ https://www.wired.com/1998/02/java-talk-with-gosling/

by SCdF 9y ago

> It was going to be a totally new way of delivering software on the fly over the network That sounds really interesting! Has any documentation survived about that?

rsynnott 9y ago

Lots. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_applet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_applet and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Web_Start https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Web_Start for links.

pjmlp 9y ago
You forgot Jini, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jini Also Oberon was another system that also allowed for something like Java applets, called Juice. http://www.modulaware.com/mdlt69.htm http://www.modulaware.com/mdlt69.htm
- rsynnott 9y ago
  Ugh, yes, so I did, though that was less about software deployment.
  - le-mark 9y ago
    None of these examples are especially illuminating here. In my opinion, two things really exhibit this "code over the network" nature; the class URLClassloader that's been in Java forever and the JVM SecurityManager system. URLClassLoader will load bytecode from any url; give it a url to a jar at some domain and it'll load it. The JVM security model was intended to let app developers define exactly what code could be executed, and what resources could be accessed on the client machine. The other stuff like JNI (a registry for RPC endpoints) and java rmi itself were baked into the standard libraries from the beginning as well. But the envisioned "software agents running on arbitrary machines on the network" never took off, seems kind of foolhardy in hindsight, that anyone would think that's a good idea.
    - kuschku 9y ago
      > The other stuff like JNI (a registry for RPC endpoints) and java rmi itself were baked into the standard libraries from the beginning as well. But the envisioned "software agents running on arbitrary machines on the network" never took off, seems kind of foolhardy in hindsight, that anyone would think that's a good idea. Well, we’re back to it with webassembly now. Everything old is new again.
    - gaius 9y ago
      software agents running on arbitrary machines on the network" never took off, seems kind of foolhardy in hindsight We call software agents "containers" now and arbitrary machines on the network "cloud" but it is the same thing...
      - le-mark 9y ago
        That's really not even closely related. Please educate yourself so I can have intelligent discussions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_agent
- gaius 9y ago
  And Marimba Castanet
  - vram22 9y ago
    And somewhat less well known, probably, but cool and potentially useful, nonetheless: ObjectSpace Voyager. It was a framework for mobile code / agents / distributed computing. I tried it out a bit, liked it. ObjectSpace were also the company that came out with JGL - the Java Generics Library, a commercial library for generics in Java, some time before Java itself got generics or even before the Java Collections API came out. I think JGL was inspired by C++'s STL (Standard Template Library).
    - jazzyk 9y ago
      ObjectSpace Voyager was a supremely well designed piece of software - it made complicated things simple. It was also a bit ahead of the time, or perhaps not marketed well.
      - vram22 9y ago
        >It was also a bit ahead of the time, or perhaps not marketed well. Yes, probably, and that may be why it did not take off more. It would have been great if it had survived and grown. Could do interesting stuff with it. Graham Glass, who was recently or is still running edu20.org / NEO LMS (an e-learning company and product) was involved with ObjectSpace, Voyager, Electric XML and WebMethods. IIRC he was the CTO of ObjectSpace and then WebMethods. He's an acquaintance of mine and a very accomplished person.
- vram22 9y ago
  Also Java RMI, Remote Method Invocation, which was an OO RPC API for Java, and the basis for higher layers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_remote_method_invocation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_remote_method_invocation
gozur88 9y ago
Java Web Start is still really useful for desktop applications in the corporate setting, though Oracle isn't putting much effort into it.

grey-area 9y ago

There were quite a few articles about Java in 90s Wired (which, like Java, was considered cool for a brief moment in the 90s). https://www.wired.com/1995/12/java-saga/ https://www.wired.com/1995/12/java-saga/ https://www.wired.com/1998/02/java-talk-with-gosling/ https://www.wired.com/1998/02/java-talk-with-gosling/