5 ms·

I have opposed a professional body with teeth because it ends up like a zombie, the original goals look alive but they're really dead. What is left is a. Prote

I have opposed a professional body with teeth because it ends up like a zombie, the original goals look alive but they're really dead. What is left is a. Protectionism that prevents lowering of wages too much b. The organization being subverted by its loudest members because everybody else is too busy living their lives. The examples we see, AMA included, are all plagued with problems. There's a quote about doing the same things and expecting different outcomes but dang made a special request for this thread.

sqldba 9y ago
I agree. Professional bodies become expensive self sustaining beauracracy machines run by the very same highly paid idiots Ellen had to work with. Look at the Australian Computer Society. You pay hundreds per year and have to jump through thousands of dollars of training and such. For what?! That you meet their standards?? What a joke. I'm a member of the American Association for Computer Machinery instead. At least they charge a reasonable amount and you get a Safari subscription with it.
ForHackernews 9y ago
> Protectionism that prevents lowering of wages too much This is a really weird complaint from somebody who is (presumably) a developer. [If parent commenter is an owner or executive, then it makes more sense] Are there other industries where workers actively disdain proposals to secure better treatment at the hands of owners?
- balfirevic 9y ago
  Is it so weird that somebody would oppose what they (apparently) consider unethical practice, even if it would benefit them?
  - sattoshi 9y ago
    Yes. And any more of this mindset could lead us into a functional democracy. Unacceptable.
  - jazzyk 9y ago
    So importing cheap labor is ethical, opposing that practice - is not ethical?
    - balfirevic 9y ago
      I don't really understand what you're asking, but note that I did not even address what is "actually" ethical or not in my comment. I simply stated that it is not weird (and should actually be expected), that somebody opposes some practice they find unethical even if the practice would benefit them. Honestly, what's weird is that what I'm saying is even remotely controversial.
      - jazzyk 9y ago
        Your statement would have been non-controversial if it had not been made in the context of the parent statements. But it was contextual.
    - aianus 9y ago
      Yes? Paying someone with American citizenship more than someone with Chinese citizenship for the same work should be regarded as unethical as paying a man more than a woman or a white person more than a black person.
      - crdoconnor 9y ago
        Is your contention that it is racist for the American government to prioritize the needs of citizens who vote for it and live under its laws over the citizens who don't?
        aianus 9y ago
        American is not a race so it's not racist, no. But I do feel that it's wrong to restrict the supply of foreign programmers so that an engineer in Silicon Valley can earn $200k instead of 'only' $150k. The average SV programmer is already in the global 0.1%, they don't need protectionism.
  - awinder 9y ago
    If you were ethically opposed to all forms of wage manipulation, this would be an extremely minor factor to get hung up on in the grand scheme of things. So to that point yes, he’s correct, it would be weird.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  > Are there other industries where workers actively disdain proposals to secure better treatment at the hands of owners? Sure, every market crash there's one story or another about employees desperately fighting their unions for a worse deal so they can stay employed, while the union insists that all staff get high salaries, but also the newest hires get fired outright. Higher wages aren't bad, but a fairly serious issue with unions is that they're not very rational when it comes to the health of the 'parent' organization. I suspect that it'd become much more relevant in software, where companies often have rapid growth and short lifespans.
- smsm42 9y ago
  Yes. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-uaw-mississippi-nissan-idUSKBN1AL02O https://www.reuters.com/article/us-uaw-mississippi-nissan-id... As for wages, I am not seeing developers working at hunger wages right now. Giving some bureaucratic body control over who is employed and on what conditions under the guise that only these people can figure out how to get better treatment and people themselves can't - doesn't sound like a winning proposition now.

sqldba 9y ago

I agree. Professional bodies become expensive self sustaining beauracracy machines run by the very same highly paid idiots Ellen had to work with. Look at the Australian Computer Society. You pay hundreds per year and have to jump through thousands of dollars of training and such. For what?! That you meet their standards?? What a joke. I'm a member of the American Association for Computer Machinery instead. At least they charge a reasonable amount and you get a Safari subscription with it.

ForHackernews 9y ago

> Protectionism that prevents lowering of wages too much This is a really weird complaint from somebody who is (presumably) a developer. [If parent commenter is an owner or executive, then it makes more sense] Are there other industries where workers actively disdain proposals to secure better treatment at the hands of owners?

balfirevic 9y ago
Is it so weird that somebody would oppose what they (apparently) consider unethical practice, even if it would benefit them?
- sattoshi 9y ago
  Yes. And any more of this mindset could lead us into a functional democracy. Unacceptable.
- jazzyk 9y ago
  So importing cheap labor is ethical, opposing that practice - is not ethical?
  - balfirevic 9y ago
    I don't really understand what you're asking, but note that I did not even address what is "actually" ethical or not in my comment. I simply stated that it is not weird (and should actually be expected), that somebody opposes some practice they find unethical even if the practice would benefit them. Honestly, what's weird is that what I'm saying is even remotely controversial.
    - jazzyk 9y ago
      Your statement would have been non-controversial if it had not been made in the context of the parent statements. But it was contextual.
  - aianus 9y ago
    Yes? Paying someone with American citizenship more than someone with Chinese citizenship for the same work should be regarded as unethical as paying a man more than a woman or a white person more than a black person.
    - crdoconnor 9y ago
      Is your contention that it is racist for the American government to prioritize the needs of citizens who vote for it and live under its laws over the citizens who don't?
      - aianus 9y ago
        American is not a race so it's not racist, no. But I do feel that it's wrong to restrict the supply of foreign programmers so that an engineer in Silicon Valley can earn $200k instead of 'only' $150k. The average SV programmer is already in the global 0.1%, they don't need protectionism.
- awinder 9y ago
  If you were ethically opposed to all forms of wage manipulation, this would be an extremely minor factor to get hung up on in the grand scheme of things. So to that point yes, he’s correct, it would be weird.
Bartweiss 9y ago
> Are there other industries where workers actively disdain proposals to secure better treatment at the hands of owners? Sure, every market crash there's one story or another about employees desperately fighting their unions for a worse deal so they can stay employed, while the union insists that all staff get high salaries, but also the newest hires get fired outright. Higher wages aren't bad, but a fairly serious issue with unions is that they're not very rational when it comes to the health of the 'parent' organization. I suspect that it'd become much more relevant in software, where companies often have rapid growth and short lifespans.
smsm42 9y ago
Yes. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-uaw-mississippi-nissan-idUSKBN1AL02O https://www.reuters.com/article/us-uaw-mississippi-nissan-id... As for wages, I am not seeing developers working at hunger wages right now. Giving some bureaucratic body control over who is employed and on what conditions under the guise that only these people can figure out how to get better treatment and people themselves can't - doesn't sound like a winning proposition now.