7 ms·

I've thought since the 90's that programmers need a professional body with teeth. Doctors have them, lawyers have them, civil engineers have them. Lots of sof

I've thought since the 90's that programmers need a professional body with teeth. Doctors have them, lawyers have them, civil engineers have them. Lots of software written is at least as critical as what the above professionals do. But software is a young field compared to all the above so I think it'll take time (or several really serious disasters...which is how the civil engineers got theirs).

gaius 9y ago
Well there is the BCS but it is completely irrelevant and it's a mystery how it still exists. It does absolutely nothing for working engineers and seems to be just a front for large employers to perpetuate the skills shortage myth while unemployment among CS grads hovers between 10 and 13%.
- bshimmin 9y ago
  I dimly recall we were pitched something about joining the BCS when I was doing my master's - I'm not sure if it was a full presentation or just some pamphlets that were passed around. I don't think any of us joined because it was quite expensive (£139 annually now) and it was supremely unclear what the benefits were. Since then, I don't believe I've ever heard it mentioned.
- greenshackle2 9y ago
  [citation needed] on that unemployment figure. Is that a unemployment for recent graduates, or anyone with a CS degree? I find that figure surprising because: 1) https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/11/19/the-college-degrees-with-the-highest-starting-salaries-in-2015 https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/11/19/the-colle... 2) This is purely anecdotal, but I've had no problem finding jobs as a self-taught programmer in Canada. I'm paid nearly 6 figures with 3 years of experience in a field where I don't have formal training. If that's not sign of a skills shortage, I don't know what is.
  - gaius 9y ago
    Here you go - 14% according to https://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/blog/2013/sep/16/computer-science-graduates-unemployment-bme https://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/blog/20... The Graun being the Graun they can't make the leap of logic to "supply and demand".
thanksgiving 9y ago
I have opposed a professional body with teeth because it ends up like a zombie, the original goals look alive but they're really dead. What is left is a. Protectionism that prevents lowering of wages too much b. The organization being subverted by its loudest members because everybody else is too busy living their lives. The examples we see, AMA included, are all plagued with problems. There's a quote about doing the same things and expecting different outcomes but dang made a special request for this thread.
- sqldba 9y ago
  I agree. Professional bodies become expensive self sustaining beauracracy machines run by the very same highly paid idiots Ellen had to work with. Look at the Australian Computer Society. You pay hundreds per year and have to jump through thousands of dollars of training and such. For what?! That you meet their standards?? What a joke. I'm a member of the American Association for Computer Machinery instead. At least they charge a reasonable amount and you get a Safari subscription with it.
- ForHackernews 9y ago
  > Protectionism that prevents lowering of wages too much This is a really weird complaint from somebody who is (presumably) a developer. [If parent commenter is an owner or executive, then it makes more sense] Are there other industries where workers actively disdain proposals to secure better treatment at the hands of owners?
  - balfirevic 9y ago
    Is it so weird that somebody would oppose what they (apparently) consider unethical practice, even if it would benefit them?
    - sattoshi 9y ago
      Yes. And any more of this mindset could lead us into a functional democracy. Unacceptable.
    - 9y ago
tbrownaw 9y ago
Wouldn't a professional body for "programmers" be a bit like a professional body for "doctors, masseuses, hairdressers, tailors, and priests"? All of those have something to do with working with humans, the way we all work with computers. And neither group has much else in common.
- OtterCoder 9y ago
  I'd accept a job title like 'Technical Priest' or 'Code Surgeon'. One of my former bosses half-jokingly changed my title to 'Web Prophet'.
  - noir_lord 9y ago
    My business card used to say <code-monkey> Never really taken titles seriously ;).
    - triangleman 9y ago
      I take it you've seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYodWEKCuGg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYodWEKCuGg
      - noir_lord 9y ago
        That was the inspiration yep.
PopsiclePete 9y ago
It sounds like a good idea, but considering how quickly the field moves, it'll become stagnant and irrelevant within a year. "You must be an ACXXXYA-accredited Node JS 0.12-p125 developer who's earned his NPM 1.01-a B-level cert and can use Visual Studio 2008 SP3 (no other version has been approved by the body) to write the codes at this job". After watching committees by the "best and brightest" of us come up with amazing ideas like SOAP, WSDL, and Annex K of the latest C11 spec, I shudder at the thought of giving someone like that authority over my work.

gaius 9y ago

Well there is the BCS but it is completely irrelevant and it's a mystery how it still exists. It does absolutely nothing for working engineers and seems to be just a front for large employers to perpetuate the skills shortage myth while unemployment among CS grads hovers between 10 and 13%.

bshimmin 9y ago
I dimly recall we were pitched something about joining the BCS when I was doing my master's - I'm not sure if it was a full presentation or just some pamphlets that were passed around. I don't think any of us joined because it was quite expensive (£139 annually now) and it was supremely unclear what the benefits were. Since then, I don't believe I've ever heard it mentioned.
greenshackle2 9y ago
[citation needed] on that unemployment figure. Is that a unemployment for recent graduates, or anyone with a CS degree? I find that figure surprising because: 1) https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/11/19/the-college-degrees-with-the-highest-starting-salaries-in-2015 https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/11/19/the-colle... 2) This is purely anecdotal, but I've had no problem finding jobs as a self-taught programmer in Canada. I'm paid nearly 6 figures with 3 years of experience in a field where I don't have formal training. If that's not sign of a skills shortage, I don't know what is.
- gaius 9y ago
  Here you go - 14% according to https://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/blog/2013/sep/16/computer-science-graduates-unemployment-bme https://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/blog/20... The Graun being the Graun they can't make the leap of logic to "supply and demand".

thanksgiving 9y ago

I have opposed a professional body with teeth because it ends up like a zombie, the original goals look alive but they're really dead. What is left is a. Protectionism that prevents lowering of wages too much b. The organization being subverted by its loudest members because everybody else is too busy living their lives. The examples we see, AMA included, are all plagued with problems. There's a quote about doing the same things and expecting different outcomes but dang made a special request for this thread.

sqldba 9y ago
I agree. Professional bodies become expensive self sustaining beauracracy machines run by the very same highly paid idiots Ellen had to work with. Look at the Australian Computer Society. You pay hundreds per year and have to jump through thousands of dollars of training and such. For what?! That you meet their standards?? What a joke. I'm a member of the American Association for Computer Machinery instead. At least they charge a reasonable amount and you get a Safari subscription with it.
ForHackernews 9y ago
> Protectionism that prevents lowering of wages too much This is a really weird complaint from somebody who is (presumably) a developer. [If parent commenter is an owner or executive, then it makes more sense] Are there other industries where workers actively disdain proposals to secure better treatment at the hands of owners?
- balfirevic 9y ago
  Is it so weird that somebody would oppose what they (apparently) consider unethical practice, even if it would benefit them?
  - sattoshi 9y ago
    Yes. And any more of this mindset could lead us into a functional democracy. Unacceptable.
  - 9y ago

tbrownaw 9y ago

Wouldn't a professional body for "programmers" be a bit like a professional body for "doctors, masseuses, hairdressers, tailors, and priests"? All of those have something to do with working with humans, the way we all work with computers. And neither group has much else in common.

OtterCoder 9y ago
I'd accept a job title like 'Technical Priest' or 'Code Surgeon'. One of my former bosses half-jokingly changed my title to 'Web Prophet'.
- noir_lord 9y ago
  My business card used to say <code-monkey> Never really taken titles seriously ;).
  - triangleman 9y ago
    I take it you've seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYodWEKCuGg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYodWEKCuGg
    - noir_lord 9y ago
      That was the inspiration yep.

PopsiclePete 9y ago

It sounds like a good idea, but considering how quickly the field moves, it'll become stagnant and irrelevant within a year. "You must be an ACXXXYA-accredited Node JS 0.12-p125 developer who's earned his NPM 1.01-a B-level cert and can use Visual Studio 2008 SP3 (no other version has been approved by the body) to write the codes at this job". After watching committees by the "best and brightest" of us come up with amazing ideas like SOAP, WSDL, and Annex K of the latest C11 spec, I shudder at the thought of giving someone like that authority over my work.