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anyone can chime in on whether preact can be covered under the same patents that apply to react ?

weego 9y ago
By what mechanism could you imagine your use of some random javascript library would be affected by being in a patent dispute with Facebook?
- spacetexas 9y ago
  Patents regard underlying functionality so if Preact infringes on the patent through using the same or sufficiently similar mechnism's to react functionality, it's a toss up but due to the nature of open source code the user might be liable. Depends on the ruling of use of open source code that is in a way productized. Also depends on if Preact's implementation is sufficient to infringe on React's patents (if they have any weight to them that is and are upheld) Its not a random library, its extremely similar to React.
  - tym0 9y ago
    The "Patent" issue with React is not with the patents related to React but with its license, so it would not impact Preact.
    - danmaz74 9y ago
      Nope. If Facebook owns any patents for mechanisms that are used in Preact, they can sue you. I'll say more: if you use Preact and there are such patents (I have no idea if there are any), they could sue you even if you don't sue them first, because Preact isn't covered by any patent grant.
      - pluma 9y ago
        If I were Facebook and a patent troll, I would closely inspect what Preact does and what patents I have that cover it and then go out and sue every company openly using Preact preemptively because switching from React to Preact indicates they might be planning to sue me in the future (and if I bankrupt them, I might acquire their patents this way). That Facebook isn't doing this should tell you something.
    - pluma 9y ago
      I have no idea where this comes from but this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. React comes with two things: * a copyright license for the source code, which is a BSD-style open source license * a patents grant license for "the React software distributed by Facebook" (i.e. official React releases but not third-party forks) The former is unconditional except as defined in the terms of the BSD-style license itself. It does not magically terminate even if you walk up to Mark Zuckerberg and personally punch him in the face. The latter is conditional and terminates if you sue Facebook, or if you get sued by Facebook and countersue over patents covering React. If Facebook sues you and you countersue them over a patent covering e.g. their social graph algorithms, you are still protected by the React patent grant. Only if you also happen to have patents covering React and decide to use them to countersue when Facebook sues you over other patents they hold, only then the patent grant is revoked. Patents don't give a fuck about source code. Software patents are about abstract ideas. Source code is an expression of that idea and thus only protected by copyright. Software patents apply whether the patent holder expressed that idea or anybody else did. If Preact does something the same way React does something and Facebook has a patent for that, you have no protection whatsoever. Even worse: Facebook likely already knows which of their patents apply to Preact or not, so if they wanted they could easily sue you for using Preact if they had such patents and felt particularly patent trollish that day. You can't escape this. You don't know whether Facebook has patents for React. But you also don't know whether Facebook has patents for Angular, or Vue or Ember or even jQuery. Angular, Vue, Ember and Preact are using the MIT license with no patent grant. Sure, if you're lucky, a court might say that the license implies a patent grant but there is no language in that license to hint that this is in any way intended (unlike, say, the Apache license). Oh, and even if the MIT license would imply an unconditional patent grant, what makes you think the authors hold all the relevant patents? What if Facebook owns a patent for Vue? What if Google holds a patent for Ember? What if Apple holds a patent for React? The reason you're upset isn't that React has an explicit patent grant with explicit limits. The reason you're upset is that you don't like software patents. That's fair and I personally think software patents are bullshit, but raging against Facebook or worse the React maintainers over this and spreading FUD is not how you deal with it.
floatboth 9y ago
Patents don't apply to React. React includes a license addition that prevents you from suing Facebook for software patents, in general.
- sandGorgon 9y ago
  It isn't structured this way - I think your reading is slightly incorrect. What the FB licensed agreement says that is any patent grants which apply to reactjs/caffe2 will be revoked and FB will countersue for infringement on reactjs/caffe2 patents. I don't think a general agreement to prevent any kind of lawsuit is completely legal and acceptable in a court of law.
- pluma 9y ago
  Preact doesn't come with any patent grant, especially not one from Facebook. If you're worried about having to sue Facebook, nothing stops Facebook from hitting you with patents covering Preact. However the patent grant does prevent them from hitting you with patents covering React if you use React and aren't suing over your own patents that cover React. You're even allowed to countersue them if they sue you first (again, as long as you don't countersue over React). IOW if you're concerned about Facebook patents: Preact: no protection Angular, Vue, Ember: no protection React: full protection as long as you don't sue them first and don't countersue over React patents Unless you have inside knowledge of FB's full patent arsenal, using ANY code written by ANYONE puts you at risk of being sued. The only difference with React is that you actually know they can't sue you over that specifically.
  - tomduncalf 9y ago
    > if you use React and aren't suing over your own patents that cover React Is this correct? The way I read it, it concerned any software patent
    - pluma 9y ago
      Read the full patent grant. > The license granted hereunder will terminate [..] if you [..] initiate [..] any Patent Assertion: (i) against Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or corporate affiliates > [..] Notwithstanding the foregoing, if Facebook [..] files a lawsuit alleging patent infringement against you in the first instance, and you respond by filing a patent infringement counterclaim in that lawsuit against that party that is unrelated to the Software, the license granted hereunder will not terminate under section (i) of this paragraph due to such counterclaim. https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS In other words: if Facebook sues you (and it can't be about React if you use FB's React with the grant) and you countersue, the grant will ONLY terminate if the patents you use concern React. So you can still defend yourself as long as you don't attack React. EDIT: FWIW (ii) and (iii) are basically scenarios where you sue other people over using React, so those aren't really relevant when trying to countersue Facebook.
vbezhenar 9y ago
Can you write hello world without infringing someone's patent?

By what mechanism could you imagine your use of some random javascript library would be affected by being in a patent dispute with Facebook?

spacetexas 9y ago
Patents regard underlying functionality so if Preact infringes on the patent through using the same or sufficiently similar mechnism's to react functionality, it's a toss up but due to the nature of open source code the user might be liable. Depends on the ruling of use of open source code that is in a way productized. Also depends on if Preact's implementation is sufficient to infringe on React's patents (if they have any weight to them that is and are upheld) Its not a random library, its extremely similar to React.
- tym0 9y ago
  The "Patent" issue with React is not with the patents related to React but with its license, so it would not impact Preact.
  - danmaz74 9y ago
    Nope. If Facebook owns any patents for mechanisms that are used in Preact, they can sue you. I'll say more: if you use Preact and there are such patents (I have no idea if there are any), they could sue you even if you don't sue them first, because Preact isn't covered by any patent grant.
    - pluma 9y ago
      If I were Facebook and a patent troll, I would closely inspect what Preact does and what patents I have that cover it and then go out and sue every company openly using Preact preemptively because switching from React to Preact indicates they might be planning to sue me in the future (and if I bankrupt them, I might acquire their patents this way). That Facebook isn't doing this should tell you something.
  - pluma 9y ago
    I have no idea where this comes from but this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. React comes with two things: * a copyright license for the source code, which is a BSD-style open source license * a patents grant license for "the React software distributed by Facebook" (i.e. official React releases but not third-party forks) The former is unconditional except as defined in the terms of the BSD-style license itself. It does not magically terminate even if you walk up to Mark Zuckerberg and personally punch him in the face. The latter is conditional and terminates if you sue Facebook, or if you get sued by Facebook and countersue over patents covering React. If Facebook sues you and you countersue them over a patent covering e.g. their social graph algorithms, you are still protected by the React patent grant. Only if you also happen to have patents covering React and decide to use them to countersue when Facebook sues you over other patents they hold, only then the patent grant is revoked. Patents don't give a fuck about source code. Software patents are about abstract ideas. Source code is an expression of that idea and thus only protected by copyright. Software patents apply whether the patent holder expressed that idea or anybody else did. If Preact does something the same way React does something and Facebook has a patent for that, you have no protection whatsoever. Even worse: Facebook likely already knows which of their patents apply to Preact or not, so if they wanted they could easily sue you for using Preact if they had such patents and felt particularly patent trollish that day. You can't escape this. You don't know whether Facebook has patents for React. But you also don't know whether Facebook has patents for Angular, or Vue or Ember or even jQuery. Angular, Vue, Ember and Preact are using the MIT license with no patent grant. Sure, if you're lucky, a court might say that the license implies a patent grant but there is no language in that license to hint that this is in any way intended (unlike, say, the Apache license). Oh, and even if the MIT license would imply an unconditional patent grant, what makes you think the authors hold all the relevant patents? What if Facebook owns a patent for Vue? What if Google holds a patent for Ember? What if Apple holds a patent for React? The reason you're upset isn't that React has an explicit patent grant with explicit limits. The reason you're upset is that you don't like software patents. That's fair and I personally think software patents are bullshit, but raging against Facebook or worse the React maintainers over this and spreading FUD is not how you deal with it.

floatboth 9y ago

Patents don't apply to React. React includes a license addition that prevents you from suing Facebook for software patents, in general.

sandGorgon 9y ago
It isn't structured this way - I think your reading is slightly incorrect. What the FB licensed agreement says that is any patent grants which apply to reactjs/caffe2 will be revoked and FB will countersue for infringement on reactjs/caffe2 patents. I don't think a general agreement to prevent any kind of lawsuit is completely legal and acceptable in a court of law.
pluma 9y ago
Preact doesn't come with any patent grant, especially not one from Facebook. If you're worried about having to sue Facebook, nothing stops Facebook from hitting you with patents covering Preact. However the patent grant does prevent them from hitting you with patents covering React if you use React and aren't suing over your own patents that cover React. You're even allowed to countersue them if they sue you first (again, as long as you don't countersue over React). IOW if you're concerned about Facebook patents: Preact: no protection Angular, Vue, Ember: no protection React: full protection as long as you don't sue them first and don't countersue over React patents Unless you have inside knowledge of FB's full patent arsenal, using ANY code written by ANYONE puts you at risk of being sued. The only difference with React is that you actually know they can't sue you over that specifically.
- tomduncalf 9y ago
  > if you use React and aren't suing over your own patents that cover React Is this correct? The way I read it, it concerned any software patent
  - pluma 9y ago
    Read the full patent grant. > The license granted hereunder will terminate [..] if you [..] initiate [..] any Patent Assertion: (i) against Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or corporate affiliates > [..] Notwithstanding the foregoing, if Facebook [..] files a lawsuit alleging patent infringement against you in the first instance, and you respond by filing a patent infringement counterclaim in that lawsuit against that party that is unrelated to the Software, the license granted hereunder will not terminate under section (i) of this paragraph due to such counterclaim. https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS In other words: if Facebook sues you (and it can't be about React if you use FB's React with the grant) and you countersue, the grant will ONLY terminate if the patents you use concern React. So you can still defend yourself as long as you don't attack React. EDIT: FWIW (ii) and (iii) are basically scenarios where you sue other people over using React, so those aren't really relevant when trying to countersue Facebook.

vbezhenar 9y ago

Can you write hello world without infringing someone's patent?