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>"Damore was absolutely right about everything ever and we should all stop diversity efforts since women are too hobbled by their genetic ladybrains to work in

>"Damore was absolutely right about everything ever and we should all stop diversity efforts since women are too hobbled by their genetic ladybrains to work in tech in large numbers anyway" Do you want to build a strawman? All we are resisting is being told we are sexist for not having a higher proportion of females in our industry despite having approximately the same proportion of which there are female graduates.

pron 9y ago
No one is asking the tech industry to hire more women engineers than there are graduates. It might just be nice to have a bit fewer women report such horrible experiences working in the industry, so that maybe we'll have more graduates, which everybody should agree is a good thing.
- deepnotderp 9y ago
  Then, in concrete terms, what DO you want.
- mpweiher 9y ago
  > No one is asking the tech industry to hire more women engineers than there are graduates Factually wrong. > horrible experiences The plural of anecdote is not data. Here is some data: ACM survey: https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2008/2/5453-women-and-men-in-the-it-profession/fulltext https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2008/2/5453-women-and-men-in-... Overall, women report slightly higher support from companies then men do. Women Leaving Engineering: https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/NSF_Stemming%20the%20Tide%20Why%20Women%20Leave%20Engineering.pdf https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/NSF_Stemming%20the%20Tid... #1 reason: "Don't like the actual work". Also, a significant number leave engineering for management. And of course the Ceci/Williams study showing a 2:1 hiring advantage for women for tenure track positions in STEM fields.
  - deepnotderp 9y ago
    SEXIST. /s
  - pron 9y ago
    > #1 reason: "Don't like the actual work". Also, a significant number leave engineering for management. Huh? I don't understand your argument at all. Of course hostile culture isn't the #1 cause! Very rarely are very serious social problems -- even the most serious social problems -- the #1 cause of pain. Poverty and crime aren't the number one causes of death. Lack of jobs isn't the #1 cause of illness etc. What percentage of women experiencing an inhospitable culture (let alone leaving because of it) do you consider acceptable? > And of course the Ceci/Williams study showing a 2:1 hiring advantage for women for tenure track positions in STEM fields. What does this have to do with anything? I don't think you understand what the issue is at all.
    - deepnotderp 9y ago
      > > And of course the Ceci/Williams study showing a 2:1 hiring advantage for women for tenure track positions in STEM fields. What does this have to do with anything? I don't think you understand what the issue is at all. His point is that there is no "hand on the other part of the scale holding down women" or whatever quasi-poetic phrase you use.
      - pron 9y ago
        And how does that study make that point?
    - mpweiher 9y ago
      That sound we're hearing is the goal posts breaking the sound barrier. I'll explain this to you step-by-step. Your claim was that, well it's a little difficult because you dodge and weave all the time. Anyway, you claimed that there was simply no scientific evidence for what Damore said. When that turned out to be wrong, you claimed that the science was wrong, again without any evidence. When it turned out the science is actually pretty established (even if you don't agree with it), you again switched and said it didn't matter whether the science was wrong or right (huh?), because: > "issue of sexism, which is far better established, seems to have a much bigger effect" Now again, you never showed any actual evidence for that theory being either "better established" or having a "bigger effect". Instead you just claimed it and claimed that you knew better, and therefore it must be true. Showing a complete lack of knowledge as to how science works (your approach is religious, not scientific, and of course that is par for the course for "gender and women's studies", which are quite blatant about being about political advocacy rather than scientific truth). So the people published in the ACM and Professor Fouad did something radical: they asked actual women instead of deciding on their behalf. And it turns out the biggest issue was not sexism, contrary to what you claim, but "didn't like the work" or "not interested in the work". Which, not entirely coincidentally was what Damore was claiming, though he made the much weaker claim that interest could be a contributing factor. Turns out he was right. Dead on right. Again, your claim is "sexism >>> interest". Actual science shows "interest >>> sexism". Damore's claim that "interest could be a factor" is right, if much weaker than the truth. Clearer now? Does that mean that "sexism is OK"? Of course not, where on earth did you get that from? (Well, you obviously got that from "holy shit what I wrote was complete BS, let's switch the topic", which is of course also why you have steadfastly refused to do what you demand of others and clearly + succinctly state your position. Dodge and weave is all you got) However, it does show that sexism isn't the primary factor that explains why there are far more men in tech than women. Interest is the main factor that explains the difference, and there are multiple layers of interlocking scientific results, with large sample sizes and large effect sizes that show this to be the case. And as to Damore's point: if you have a wrong theory as to the causes, you're unlikely to get the results you want. In fact, even though sexism exists (everywhere) it is unclear whether it plays any part in causing the disparity, because (a) women in CS report that they receive more support from the companies than men, not less and (b) there is a well-supported 2:1 hiring advantage. If anything, sexist practices appear to be preferential towards women, so if sexist treatment stopped you'd have even fewer women in tech, not more. And as to this whole "women in tech" being a coordinated effort to keep women out of positions of power ("we are concerned about women being marginalized from positions of power"): again, one of the highest targets for women leaving engineering work is management, so they leave for positions of more power, lording it over the menfolk who prefer to do the techie stuff. And as to the series of incidents that you appear to be referring to. (a) The plural of anecdote is not data. The data show something else. (b) Simple math shows that gender disparities are the primary cause of skewed incidents of a sexist nature, not their result. (Though of course you can have feedback loops). (c) Tech is a shitshow for everyone. If a woman were to recount the things that happened to me in my career, you would take it as the clearest indication of "sexism" possible. (d) But I don't know if any other professions are better.

pron 9y ago

No one is asking the tech industry to hire more women engineers than there are graduates. It might just be nice to have a bit fewer women report such horrible experiences working in the industry, so that maybe we'll have more graduates, which everybody should agree is a good thing.

deepnotderp 9y ago
Then, in concrete terms, what DO you want.
mpweiher 9y ago
> No one is asking the tech industry to hire more women engineers than there are graduates Factually wrong. > horrible experiences The plural of anecdote is not data. Here is some data: ACM survey: https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2008/2/5453-women-and-men-in-the-it-profession/fulltext https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2008/2/5453-women-and-men-in-... Overall, women report slightly higher support from companies then men do. Women Leaving Engineering: https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/NSF_Stemming%20the%20Tide%20Why%20Women%20Leave%20Engineering.pdf https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/NSF_Stemming%20the%20Tid... #1 reason: "Don't like the actual work". Also, a significant number leave engineering for management. And of course the Ceci/Williams study showing a 2:1 hiring advantage for women for tenure track positions in STEM fields.
- deepnotderp 9y ago
  SEXIST. /s
- pron 9y ago
  > #1 reason: "Don't like the actual work". Also, a significant number leave engineering for management. Huh? I don't understand your argument at all. Of course hostile culture isn't the #1 cause! Very rarely are very serious social problems -- even the most serious social problems -- the #1 cause of pain. Poverty and crime aren't the number one causes of death. Lack of jobs isn't the #1 cause of illness etc. What percentage of women experiencing an inhospitable culture (let alone leaving because of it) do you consider acceptable? > And of course the Ceci/Williams study showing a 2:1 hiring advantage for women for tenure track positions in STEM fields. What does this have to do with anything? I don't think you understand what the issue is at all.
  - deepnotderp 9y ago
    > > And of course the Ceci/Williams study showing a 2:1 hiring advantage for women for tenure track positions in STEM fields. What does this have to do with anything? I don't think you understand what the issue is at all. His point is that there is no "hand on the other part of the scale holding down women" or whatever quasi-poetic phrase you use.
    - pron 9y ago
      And how does that study make that point?
  - mpweiher 9y ago
    That sound we're hearing is the goal posts breaking the sound barrier. I'll explain this to you step-by-step. Your claim was that, well it's a little difficult because you dodge and weave all the time. Anyway, you claimed that there was simply no scientific evidence for what Damore said. When that turned out to be wrong, you claimed that the science was wrong, again without any evidence. When it turned out the science is actually pretty established (even if you don't agree with it), you again switched and said it didn't matter whether the science was wrong or right (huh?), because: > "issue of sexism, which is far better established, seems to have a much bigger effect" Now again, you never showed any actual evidence for that theory being either "better established" or having a "bigger effect". Instead you just claimed it and claimed that you knew better, and therefore it must be true. Showing a complete lack of knowledge as to how science works (your approach is religious, not scientific, and of course that is par for the course for "gender and women's studies", which are quite blatant about being about political advocacy rather than scientific truth). So the people published in the ACM and Professor Fouad did something radical: they asked actual women instead of deciding on their behalf. And it turns out the biggest issue was not sexism, contrary to what you claim, but "didn't like the work" or "not interested in the work". Which, not entirely coincidentally was what Damore was claiming, though he made the much weaker claim that interest could be a contributing factor. Turns out he was right. Dead on right. Again, your claim is "sexism >>> interest". Actual science shows "interest >>> sexism". Damore's claim that "interest could be a factor" is right, if much weaker than the truth. Clearer now? Does that mean that "sexism is OK"? Of course not, where on earth did you get that from? (Well, you obviously got that from "holy shit what I wrote was complete BS, let's switch the topic", which is of course also why you have steadfastly refused to do what you demand of others and clearly + succinctly state your position. Dodge and weave is all you got) However, it does show that sexism isn't the primary factor that explains why there are far more men in tech than women. Interest is the main factor that explains the difference, and there are multiple layers of interlocking scientific results, with large sample sizes and large effect sizes that show this to be the case. And as to Damore's point: if you have a wrong theory as to the causes, you're unlikely to get the results you want. In fact, even though sexism exists (everywhere) it is unclear whether it plays any part in causing the disparity, because (a) women in CS report that they receive more support from the companies than men, not less and (b) there is a well-supported 2:1 hiring advantage. If anything, sexist practices appear to be preferential towards women, so if sexist treatment stopped you'd have even fewer women in tech, not more. And as to this whole "women in tech" being a coordinated effort to keep women out of positions of power ("we are concerned about women being marginalized from positions of power"): again, one of the highest targets for women leaving engineering work is management, so they leave for positions of more power, lording it over the menfolk who prefer to do the techie stuff. And as to the series of incidents that you appear to be referring to. (a) The plural of anecdote is not data. The data show something else. (b) Simple math shows that gender disparities are the primary cause of skewed incidents of a sexist nature, not their result. (Though of course you can have feedback loops). (c) Tech is a shitshow for everyone. If a woman were to recount the things that happened to me in my career, you would take it as the clearest indication of "sexism" possible. (d) But I don't know if any other professions are better.