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There really should be no financial benefit to marriage. It becomes a coercive force that encourages people to marry and stay married, even though they may not

There really should be no financial benefit to marriage. It becomes a coercive force that encourages people to marry and stay married, even though they may not want to.

jseliger 9y ago
More interesting, I think, is how lopsided sex ratios can affect who marries and for how long: https://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/19/briefly-noted-date-onomics-how-dating-became-a-lopsided-numbers-game-jon-birger https://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/19/briefly-noted-date-onomic...
elipsey 9y ago
I thought that was a considered a feature, not a bug....
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  A legal marriage is a legal contract, and all contracts are transactional (as far as I know). I don't think it's wise to pretend that a marriage contract is different from any other, and it's most useful in cases of conflict where a 3rd party (judge, hospital, etc) needs to determine what to do. The love aspect of it does not and should not have to do with the legal aspect. At the end of the day, putting food on the table and a roof over your kids' heads is life's priority, so finding a partner who can assist with that is understandably a prerequisite before any of this love/compatibility stuff can be built on top.
  - Sukotto 9y ago
    I sure wish I had treated it (as you say) more like a "real" contract. It would have saved us a ton of trouble to lay out our respective expectations, roles, responsibilities, duties, and penalties for breaking the above. I think it would have saved us both a ton of trouble, misunderstandings, and hurt feelings.
    - subroutine 9y ago
      Not that it isn't important to lay out those things before signing a marriage contract... but I'm not sure how much flexibility you have in deciding the (legal) penalties for breaking those informal expectations etc. I imagine the terms of a marriage contract are defined by each state, as sort of a take-it-or-leave-it contract. There might be ways to hedge, like prenuptial agreements. However (and not exactly the same thing), I recently spoke with a corporate attorney regarding company protections in the unfortunate case something happened to one of the company founders under various scenarios (e.g. if a company founder gets married and dies within 5 years of incorporation, is there a way to require the spouse to sell those shares back to the company, rather than them owning a controlling stake). Prenuptial agreements were brought-up, and my attorney basically said, "yeah those exist, and are an option, an expensive option, but in a legal battle, pffft, don't expect a prenup to be your pocket ace."
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > A legal marriage is a legal contract Not really; its sometimes referred to as a contract, but legally the law of contracts doesn't apply either in formation of marriages, or when the expectations associated with marriage are broken. Marriage is somewhat analogous to a legal partership (especially in common law jurisdictions, where merely behaving as if it existed can cause it to legally exist.)
lotsofpulp 9y ago
Actually, for a couple who earn about the same each, there is a marriage penalty: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/16/upshot/marriage-penalty-couples-income.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/16/upshot/marria...
- sokoloff 9y ago
  If the tax penalty is smaller than the savings from sharing a household, it's still an advantage to be married vs single and living alone.
  - bitlax 9y ago
    A benefit, independent of marriage, which applies to those who cohabitate and roommates.
    - xxXXxx- 9y ago
      There's other financial benefits to marriage, off the top of my head: Family health insurance plans Unlimited tax free inheritance Spousal social security and pension Social security survivors benefits
  - protomyth 9y ago
    Well, you could be unmarried and living together.
    - PakG1 9y ago
      I don't know how it is in other places, but in Vancouver, if you cohabit for a number of years, you are subject to the same stuff as if you were married couples. I can't remember the details, forgive me, busy work day.
      - kobeya 9y ago
        That's called common-law marriage and it exists in California too, but it doesn't mean you start paying married tax rates. It just means that, e.g., if your partner falls terminally ill you are allowed to make medical decisions for them just as a spouse would, or if they die you take custody of the children rather than their side of the family, etc.
closeparen 9y ago
The economic benefits of sharing a bedroom with another income earner will only get more powerful as we crowd into cities that don't want to grow. DINK is on its way from being a nice bonus to baseline entry criteria if you want to live within public transit range of a job. That doesn't require marriage, per se, but something that looks a lot like it.
roceasta 9y ago
>coercive force that encourages people to marry and stay married Not necessarily 'stay married' because for many people there's a financial incentive to get divorced. And you can't get divorced if you don't get married in the first place.
laretluval 9y ago
The whole idea of marriage is to be a coercive force that pushes people away from a defect-defect equilibrium in the Prisoner's Dilemma of relationships.

There really should be no financial benefit to marriage. It becomes a coercive force that encourages people to marry and stay married, even though they may not want to.

jseliger 9y ago

More interesting, I think, is how lopsided sex ratios can affect who marries and for how long: https://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/19/briefly-noted-date-onomics-how-dating-became-a-lopsided-numbers-game-jon-birger https://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/19/briefly-noted-date-onomic...

elipsey 9y ago

I thought that was a considered a feature, not a bug....

lotsofpulp 9y ago
A legal marriage is a legal contract, and all contracts are transactional (as far as I know). I don't think it's wise to pretend that a marriage contract is different from any other, and it's most useful in cases of conflict where a 3rd party (judge, hospital, etc) needs to determine what to do. The love aspect of it does not and should not have to do with the legal aspect. At the end of the day, putting food on the table and a roof over your kids' heads is life's priority, so finding a partner who can assist with that is understandably a prerequisite before any of this love/compatibility stuff can be built on top.
- Sukotto 9y ago
  I sure wish I had treated it (as you say) more like a "real" contract. It would have saved us a ton of trouble to lay out our respective expectations, roles, responsibilities, duties, and penalties for breaking the above. I think it would have saved us both a ton of trouble, misunderstandings, and hurt feelings.
  - subroutine 9y ago
    Not that it isn't important to lay out those things before signing a marriage contract... but I'm not sure how much flexibility you have in deciding the (legal) penalties for breaking those informal expectations etc. I imagine the terms of a marriage contract are defined by each state, as sort of a take-it-or-leave-it contract. There might be ways to hedge, like prenuptial agreements. However (and not exactly the same thing), I recently spoke with a corporate attorney regarding company protections in the unfortunate case something happened to one of the company founders under various scenarios (e.g. if a company founder gets married and dies within 5 years of incorporation, is there a way to require the spouse to sell those shares back to the company, rather than them owning a controlling stake). Prenuptial agreements were brought-up, and my attorney basically said, "yeah those exist, and are an option, an expensive option, but in a legal battle, pffft, don't expect a prenup to be your pocket ace."
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > A legal marriage is a legal contract Not really; its sometimes referred to as a contract, but legally the law of contracts doesn't apply either in formation of marriages, or when the expectations associated with marriage are broken. Marriage is somewhat analogous to a legal partership (especially in common law jurisdictions, where merely behaving as if it existed can cause it to legally exist.)

lotsofpulp 9y ago

Actually, for a couple who earn about the same each, there is a marriage penalty: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/16/upshot/marriage-penalty-couples-income.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/16/upshot/marria...

sokoloff 9y ago
If the tax penalty is smaller than the savings from sharing a household, it's still an advantage to be married vs single and living alone.
- bitlax 9y ago
  A benefit, independent of marriage, which applies to those who cohabitate and roommates.
  - xxXXxx- 9y ago
    There's other financial benefits to marriage, off the top of my head: Family health insurance plans Unlimited tax free inheritance Spousal social security and pension Social security survivors benefits
- protomyth 9y ago
  Well, you could be unmarried and living together.
  - PakG1 9y ago
    I don't know how it is in other places, but in Vancouver, if you cohabit for a number of years, you are subject to the same stuff as if you were married couples. I can't remember the details, forgive me, busy work day.
    - kobeya 9y ago
      That's called common-law marriage and it exists in California too, but it doesn't mean you start paying married tax rates. It just means that, e.g., if your partner falls terminally ill you are allowed to make medical decisions for them just as a spouse would, or if they die you take custody of the children rather than their side of the family, etc.

closeparen 9y ago

The economic benefits of sharing a bedroom with another income earner will only get more powerful as we crowd into cities that don't want to grow. DINK is on its way from being a nice bonus to baseline entry criteria if you want to live within public transit range of a job. That doesn't require marriage, per se, but something that looks a lot like it.

roceasta 9y ago

>coercive force that encourages people to marry and stay married Not necessarily 'stay married' because for many people there's a financial incentive to get divorced. And you can't get divorced if you don't get married in the first place.

laretluval 9y ago

The whole idea of marriage is to be a coercive force that pushes people away from a defect-defect equilibrium in the Prisoner's Dilemma of relationships.