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The scariest project I've ever seen is OpenBazaar. It's a decentralized marketplace. It does for physical things what Napster did for music. Not the best analog

The scariest project I've ever seen is OpenBazaar. It's a decentralized marketplace. It does for physical things what Napster did for music. Not the best analogy, since you have to pay for the things, but it's not far off. Right now they only sell trinkets, like sunglasses. But both the founders are former spooks. They live in fairfax, 20min from Langley. And they're adding Tor and Tails support in the next release. The implications are massive and disturbing. 13yos will be able to buy heroin. It's not just breathless speculation. I probably would've done something similar, not to use it, but just to see if I could. You do that kind of stuff all the time as a faux-edgy kid. And it's easy for kids to get bitcoin from ATMs. I don't even want to think about what will happen in groups. I'm trying to keep quiet and see what happens with the project. But all the darknet markets are apparently dead right now. It will either be one of the most empowering or damaging pieces of technology. Tor and Amazon had a baby and named it OpenBazaar. But I know how hard it is to predict anything like that, so it's like a 90% chance I'm just posting a silly comment. It's not too hard to imagine though -- bitcoin and tor serve as examples of what's possible at the intersection of society and technology. All the elements are there for the project to have a huge impact.

swiley 9y ago
Every time I've tried to use OpenBazaar it's been a real mess. Not the "unpolished open source project" kind of mess but the "why the fuck did you think that would have been a good idea?" kind of mess. The very first time I went to use it the ".config" file just automatically ran sudo and one of the OSX package managers (whichever one I didn't have installed.) If I had typed my password into the password prompt (which appeared with no explanation by the way) it would have really messed things up. The idea seems neat, and potentially empowering. The implementation is pretty lacking though.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  Thank goodness. I can only hope they're incompetent. You know what? We should build one. Right now. Otherwise someone else will. If we become the defacto standard, we can at least have some controls in place. You might argue that would disqualify the implementation, but network effects are very powerful. eBay is still eBay.
  - swiley 9y ago
    TBH I'm not too sure something like that could even work. I remember logging into #bitcoin-otc one day and hearing about what arbatrage did, that was when I lost faith in these reputation based markets. Even stuff like amazons struggles with this.
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      Ah. What do you see as some of the major problems? It's hard to overstate how easy it is to dismiss ideas like this, though. I vividly remember my friend wanting to start a Bitcoin exchange in 2010 or so. He was like we can do it, people will eventually be transacting in BTC, this is a huge opportunity. Exchange? Isn't that finance? That's regulation hell, better not even try. Funny how things turn out. Before that he was talking about neutal nets when we were teenagers, and I thought he was crazy. AI was just a fad that died in the 80's. This particular idea seems of the same class, and I'm determined not to make the same mistake three times. But if there are hard issues with it, it's best to know. So what did you have in mind?
  - whiddershins 9y ago
    If you need random help, I'm in.
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      Sure, what's your email? Companies fail 100% of the time when they're formed like this, but this isn't really a company (it has to be free to compete with OpenBazaar) and I'm one person. EDIT: This is doable though. There are endless stories of new startups running circles around established competitors. I don't know if that will happen, but we should explore the possibility. How hard can it be to set this up in a nice packaged experience? It's a lot of work, but it's not difficult work.
    - tylersmith 9y ago
      Edit: I did not believe sillysaurus was being serious. I am not trying to poach. If you'd like to work on a decentralized marketplace we'd love to have you help out with OpenBazaar. Feel free to join our Slack and discuss what you might like to work on if you'd like.
- tylersmith 9y ago
  I agree version 1 isn't great. We're alpha testing version 2 and so far it's being received a lot better.
pasbesoin 9y ago
This isn't a perfect solution, but ultimately, I think, we are going to have to move in the direction where 13 year olds don't want to buy heroin. And that's going to be based not on punishment, but on better alternatives and honest information. And a better community of stronger social connection. I think of the whole "sex ed" debate. Studies and statistics show that providing information -- and practical alternatives, such as birth and disease control -- works. "Abstinence only" does not. Hell, even our "War on Drugs". Turns out that maybe my friend who grew magic mushrooms -- of which I never partook -- was doing better for himself than those turning to the nascent Prozac revolution. We're seeing reporting now that, under some conditions, those hallucinogenic experiences may be more effective at combating depression. As for myself, I've come to think that the ever increasing "IP rights" are becoming an increasing burden on society and technology's development. Creative people are running up against walls hindering their creativity, walls that seem to be increasingly sold to "rent-seeking" holding companies. To some extent, maybe those companies are useful and productive -- arbitraging initial creativity into a more reliable source of cash and/or cash flow. But when they turn around and push for laws that continue to increase the tenure of their holdings and monopolies... They are using their position to further entrench their position, rather than foster free-flowing development. For a long time, I tried -- more than many around me -- to "play by the rules". Belatedly, it seems, I've been becoming more aware of just how rigged "the rules" are and are becoming. Free-flowing heroin's a scary thing. But, so's the law and order crowd -- or some of its more extreme aspects. I realize my musings here are probably controversial. And I guess I'll add, for the sake of balance as well as whoever might be monitoring threads like these, that I continue to live a rather "squeaky clean" life. But I can't buy in to the law and order rhetoric, any more.
- yters 9y ago
  Afghanistan has free flowing drugs and most other things we outlaw in our society such as pedophilia and laissez faire murder. In theory it is a libertarians paradise.
  - tylersmith 9y ago
    Not even remotely. Libertarianism is not just wanting drugs, pedophilia, and murder. Murder is certainly off the table for any libertarian, and I suspect most would agree with me that any sort of sexual conduct with children constitutes violence.
woodandsteel 9y ago
>all the darknet markets are apparently dead right now. From what I understand, its because they were all run by amateurs who made opsec or IT mistakes. What I think is scary is that sooner or later, someone with the cash to hire serious professionals, like a Russian criminal gang, is going to set up a darknet marketplace that can't be cracked.
- CM30 9y ago
  To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if a Russian criminal gang/the mafia tried to set up one of these marketplaces themselves. Seems like they'd be much safer from being shut down/arrested by the US authorities than anyone trying to keep their opsec good in a US friendly country. Honestly, I'm kind of surprised that so many darknet markets turned out to be run by amateur technies in the US or Western Europe rather than actual criminal gangs.
  - hulahoof 9y ago
    There is always the possibility that the amateur techies were fall guys, I agree that it is odd that no major market had significant ties
    - CM30 9y ago
      That is actually a good point. Who's to say all these site 'owners' actually are the people funding or backing up the project? Maybe they already are getting help from established criminal gangs and organisations. It's not impossible.
lumberjack 9y ago
I find the possibility of an untraceable assassination market much more worrying. There are currently, would-be-customers of such a service who lack the necessarily contacts, and there are plenty of would-be-contract-killers who would take such a "gig". A possible assassination market that is untraceable might facilitate trade between these two sets of entities which is of course a good thing, because all trade is good.
- tylersmith 9y ago
  Any ideas on how the internet could be changed to not allow that?
  - krapp 9y ago
    The internet is designed to make any such attempts impossible, up to the scale of a nuclear assault. Luckily, though, 99.9% of assassination markets are bound to be scams or honeypots anyway.
    - tylersmith 9y ago
      I definitely agree.
ryanlol 9y ago
>all the darknet markets are apparently dead right now Dream Market is still up and has been since 2013.
tylersmith 9y ago
I'm glad we're such a hot button topic. When I left my previous job to do what I cared most about I'd have never thought people would care as much as you do. I'll make my first sale on our new version dedicated to you.
3131s 9y ago
> . 13yos will be able to buy heroin. It's not just breathless speculation. You are so out of touch! There are plenty of 13yos selling in the US, it's not like it's hard to find. Obviously the way to prevent minors from getting access is to legalize / regulate.
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  >You are so out of touch! There are plenty of 13yos selling in the US, it's not like it's hard to find. Well, another sign that I live in a dystopia, always nice to read on a Sunday night.
whatnotests 9y ago
> Tor and Amazon had an abortion and named it OpenBazaar. There. Fixed that for you.
- dang 9y ago
  Please don't do this here.
ImSkeptical 9y ago
>The implications are massive and disturbing. 13yos will be able to buy heroin I'm far more concerned about people buying and selling thirteen year olds.

swiley 9y ago

Every time I've tried to use OpenBazaar it's been a real mess. Not the "unpolished open source project" kind of mess but the "why the fuck did you think that would have been a good idea?" kind of mess. The very first time I went to use it the ".config" file just automatically ran sudo and one of the OSX package managers (whichever one I didn't have installed.) If I had typed my password into the password prompt (which appeared with no explanation by the way) it would have really messed things up. The idea seems neat, and potentially empowering. The implementation is pretty lacking though.

sillysaurus3 9y ago
Thank goodness. I can only hope they're incompetent. You know what? We should build one. Right now. Otherwise someone else will. If we become the defacto standard, we can at least have some controls in place. You might argue that would disqualify the implementation, but network effects are very powerful. eBay is still eBay.
- swiley 9y ago
  TBH I'm not too sure something like that could even work. I remember logging into #bitcoin-otc one day and hearing about what arbatrage did, that was when I lost faith in these reputation based markets. Even stuff like amazons struggles with this.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    Ah. What do you see as some of the major problems? It's hard to overstate how easy it is to dismiss ideas like this, though. I vividly remember my friend wanting to start a Bitcoin exchange in 2010 or so. He was like we can do it, people will eventually be transacting in BTC, this is a huge opportunity. Exchange? Isn't that finance? That's regulation hell, better not even try. Funny how things turn out. Before that he was talking about neutal nets when we were teenagers, and I thought he was crazy. AI was just a fad that died in the 80's. This particular idea seems of the same class, and I'm determined not to make the same mistake three times. But if there are hard issues with it, it's best to know. So what did you have in mind?
- whiddershins 9y ago
  If you need random help, I'm in.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    Sure, what's your email? Companies fail 100% of the time when they're formed like this, but this isn't really a company (it has to be free to compete with OpenBazaar) and I'm one person. EDIT: This is doable though. There are endless stories of new startups running circles around established competitors. I don't know if that will happen, but we should explore the possibility. How hard can it be to set this up in a nice packaged experience? It's a lot of work, but it's not difficult work.
  - tylersmith 9y ago
    Edit: I did not believe sillysaurus was being serious. I am not trying to poach. If you'd like to work on a decentralized marketplace we'd love to have you help out with OpenBazaar. Feel free to join our Slack and discuss what you might like to work on if you'd like.
tylersmith 9y ago
I agree version 1 isn't great. We're alpha testing version 2 and so far it's being received a lot better.

pasbesoin 9y ago

This isn't a perfect solution, but ultimately, I think, we are going to have to move in the direction where 13 year olds don't want to buy heroin. And that's going to be based not on punishment, but on better alternatives and honest information. And a better community of stronger social connection. I think of the whole "sex ed" debate. Studies and statistics show that providing information -- and practical alternatives, such as birth and disease control -- works. "Abstinence only" does not. Hell, even our "War on Drugs". Turns out that maybe my friend who grew magic mushrooms -- of which I never partook -- was doing better for himself than those turning to the nascent Prozac revolution. We're seeing reporting now that, under some conditions, those hallucinogenic experiences may be more effective at combating depression. As for myself, I've come to think that the ever increasing "IP rights" are becoming an increasing burden on society and technology's development. Creative people are running up against walls hindering their creativity, walls that seem to be increasingly sold to "rent-seeking" holding companies. To some extent, maybe those companies are useful and productive -- arbitraging initial creativity into a more reliable source of cash and/or cash flow. But when they turn around and push for laws that continue to increase the tenure of their holdings and monopolies... They are using their position to further entrench their position, rather than foster free-flowing development. For a long time, I tried -- more than many around me -- to "play by the rules". Belatedly, it seems, I've been becoming more aware of just how rigged "the rules" are and are becoming. Free-flowing heroin's a scary thing. But, so's the law and order crowd -- or some of its more extreme aspects. I realize my musings here are probably controversial. And I guess I'll add, for the sake of balance as well as whoever might be monitoring threads like these, that I continue to live a rather "squeaky clean" life. But I can't buy in to the law and order rhetoric, any more.

yters 9y ago
Afghanistan has free flowing drugs and most other things we outlaw in our society such as pedophilia and laissez faire murder. In theory it is a libertarians paradise.
- tylersmith 9y ago
  Not even remotely. Libertarianism is not just wanting drugs, pedophilia, and murder. Murder is certainly off the table for any libertarian, and I suspect most would agree with me that any sort of sexual conduct with children constitutes violence.

woodandsteel 9y ago

>all the darknet markets are apparently dead right now. From what I understand, its because they were all run by amateurs who made opsec or IT mistakes. What I think is scary is that sooner or later, someone with the cash to hire serious professionals, like a Russian criminal gang, is going to set up a darknet marketplace that can't be cracked.

CM30 9y ago
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if a Russian criminal gang/the mafia tried to set up one of these marketplaces themselves. Seems like they'd be much safer from being shut down/arrested by the US authorities than anyone trying to keep their opsec good in a US friendly country. Honestly, I'm kind of surprised that so many darknet markets turned out to be run by amateur technies in the US or Western Europe rather than actual criminal gangs.
- hulahoof 9y ago
  There is always the possibility that the amateur techies were fall guys, I agree that it is odd that no major market had significant ties
  - CM30 9y ago
    That is actually a good point. Who's to say all these site 'owners' actually are the people funding or backing up the project? Maybe they already are getting help from established criminal gangs and organisations. It's not impossible.

lumberjack 9y ago

I find the possibility of an untraceable assassination market much more worrying. There are currently, would-be-customers of such a service who lack the necessarily contacts, and there are plenty of would-be-contract-killers who would take such a "gig". A possible assassination market that is untraceable might facilitate trade between these two sets of entities which is of course a good thing, because all trade is good.

tylersmith 9y ago
Any ideas on how the internet could be changed to not allow that?
- krapp 9y ago
  The internet is designed to make any such attempts impossible, up to the scale of a nuclear assault. Luckily, though, 99.9% of assassination markets are bound to be scams or honeypots anyway.
  - tylersmith 9y ago
    I definitely agree.

ryanlol 9y ago

>all the darknet markets are apparently dead right now Dream Market is still up and has been since 2013.

tylersmith 9y ago

I'm glad we're such a hot button topic. When I left my previous job to do what I cared most about I'd have never thought people would care as much as you do. I'll make my first sale on our new version dedicated to you.

3131s 9y ago

> . 13yos will be able to buy heroin. It's not just breathless speculation. You are so out of touch! There are plenty of 13yos selling in the US, it's not like it's hard to find. Obviously the way to prevent minors from getting access is to legalize / regulate.

eli_gottlieb 9y ago
>You are so out of touch! There are plenty of 13yos selling in the US, it's not like it's hard to find. Well, another sign that I live in a dystopia, always nice to read on a Sunday night.

whatnotests 9y ago

> Tor and Amazon had an abortion and named it OpenBazaar. There. Fixed that for you.

dang 9y ago
Please don't do this here.

ImSkeptical 9y ago

>The implications are massive and disturbing. 13yos will be able to buy heroin I'm far more concerned about people buying and selling thirteen year olds.