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Poland's oldest university denies Google's right to patent Polish coding concept
- informatimago 9y agoGoogle, the universal evil company. (That's where you realise emojis lack a pinky finger, that could become google's logo).
- kuschku 9y agoThis is related to the ANS patent of Google, which was previously discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14751977 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14751977
- 654wak654 9y agoDoes the article mean ENcoding and not just coding?
- wolf550e 9y agoThey mean "coding" in the information theory meaning of the word: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%27s_source_coding_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%27s_source_coding_theo... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huffman_coding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huffman_coding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_coding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_coding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_Numeral_Systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_Numeral_Systems
- nxc18 9y agoWow, fuck Google. They really should consider re-adopting "Don't be evil" for PR proposes at the very least. (This isn't too say other companies don't pull the same shit; fuck them all just as much)
- justonepost 9y agoHas google ever filed a patent suit against someone other than in defense? What's more is they have purchased licenses to defend public use of formats. https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2013/03/07/google-and-mpeg-la-sign-licensing-agreement-covering-googles-vp8-video-codec-clearing-the-way-for-wider-adoption/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2013/03/07/googl...
- mirimir 9y agoHow is that relevant to an attempt to patent something that's in the public record?
- justonepost 9y agoWell, the us has moved to first to file. It could be they are just protecting it from being patented by someone else. Also, until you see the patent app, you don't really know what they are patenting exactly.
- evanb 9y agoIf there's prior art, what's the difference if a system is first to file or first to invent?
- jhall1468 9y agoBecause prior art is a defensive patent invalidation or prevention technique. If Google doesn't file this patent a troll will, and they will aggressively sue companies (Google included). Google is doing what it has to to protect itself. Blame the system.
- beautifulfreak 9y agoThey could have cc'd Jarek Duda, and avoided the appearance of pulling a fast one on the real inventor, putting their name on someone else's homework. It just looks sleazy.
- rdtsc 9y agoThere is a difference, other companies don't bother making moralistic claims about good and evil in their PR. Google did, so I think it is fair criticize it according to the standards it set itself up with.
- dTal 9y agoCall me radical, but I think "don't be evil" is a standard we should ideally hold all companies to, whatever their PR says. It shouldn't really be a high bar!
- CalChris 9y agoI'm not understanding how Google and employees is claiming to be the original inventor here. Each inventor must sign an oath or declaration that includes certain statements required by law and the USPTO rules, including the statement that he or she believes himself or herself to be the original inventor or an original joint inventor of a claimed invention in the application and the statement that the application was made or authorized to be made by him or her. https://www.uspto.gov/patents-getting-started/general-information-concerning-patents https://www.uspto.gov/patents-getting-started/general-inform... How is Google+Co the original inventor?
- justonepost 9y agoLikely they are patenting their use of ANS rather than ANS itself. You can patent anything if you get specific enough. For things like video formats it actually works because it keeps others from creating decoders/encoders.
- cma 9y agoApplying it to video is one of the most obvious applications and it pretty much just slots in as a module, replacing huffman coding or arithmetic coding.
- justonepost 9y agoYeah, that's always tricky, but you are still missing the point. It's not using it for video they have to prove is non obvious but how they are using it for video. Given the elite mathematical skills you'll need to understand all of this I suspect they'll be able to protect it. Good reference on this patent: https://encode.ru/threads/2648-Published-rANS-patent-by-Storeleap/page3 https://encode.ru/threads/2648-Published-rANS-patent-by-Stor...
- thechao 9y agoThe genius of ANS is that it isn't a difficult concept to understand. It's a cleverly designed look-up-table. The only really difficult part is the proof of certain parts of the codec window.
- willvarfar 9y ago(For those interested in data compression, https://encode.ru https://encode.ru is very active. This thread covers the rANS patent problems: https://encode.ru/threads/2648-Published-rANS-patent-by-Storeleap/page3 https://encode.ru/threads/2648-Published-rANS-patent-by-Stor... )
- alecco 9y agoPlease consider not showing that forum to people who are not working in compression. It is a rare beauty that could easily fall into Eternal September. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
- Sylphine 9y agoBrought to you by the company that fires employees that desire to discuss company diversity programs and bans content on its severs that it deems unethical. Totally not evil.
- johnhenry 9y agoI stand by their right to dismiss employees that make the company look bad. I also stand by their right to remove content that is might mislead people into doing something that would harm themselves (https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiratard/comments/5vwedb/google_blacklists_natural_news_the_webs_leading/ https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiratard/comments/5vwedb/google...).
- chronic6h2 9y agoI assume you believe to have the right to decide what offends you or not. In that case, so do I -- and I find your comment offensive. But oh wait, you only agree if it benefits you. Otherwise you will protest, am I right?
- Sylphine 9y agoBrought to you by the company that fires employees that desire to discuss company diversity programs and bans content on its severs that it deems unethical. Totally not evil.
- woranl 9y agoToday's Google is a sugar coated evil corporation. "Don't be evil"... pathetic.
- logingone 9y agoAlong with the kiddie play-school design. Some creepy psych things going on there.
- master_yoda_1 9y agoSomeone should stop the monopoly of google in computer science and AI. Otherwise its going to be dangerous.
- gaius 9y agoIt needs to be broken up like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System
- Sylphine 9y agoMore than 90 % of its revenue comes from ads so I don't see a way they would be affected. The only valuable brands are Youtube and the search engine(android could even operate as a nonprofit funded by Google). Progress but hardly a "win".
- gaius 9y agoMake it spin off YouTube, Maps/Earth, Translate, its public cloud, GMail etc etc.
- Sylphine 9y agoYes but most of those services gain traction from the search engine. Google2 could quickly use FOSS code to integrate similar products to those that they would lose and even if they would be a MVP that would still do the trick. See what I mean ?
- gaius 9y agoIts the level of integration thats the problem, the way they can leverage dominant positions in markets A, B and C to conquer market D.
- aaimnr 9y agoI stumbled upon this edit war concerning Huffman Coding article on Wikipedia [1], where the ANS algorithm author (Jarek Duda) justifies his edits back in 2007 as a way to "shorten the delay for its [ANS] current wide use in modern compressors, leading to unimaginable world-wide energy and time savings thanks to up to 30x speedup." Sounds dramatic, but today it seems like he had a point. The other guy (guarding Wikipedia against self promotion) has a point too, though. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHuffman_coding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHuffman_coding
- RandomInteger4 9y agoI don't understand how companies can be so bold as to file for patents on things that are already in industry use by more than the filer of the patent.
- userbinator 9y agoIt's interesting that arithmetic compression and its variants seem to be a favourite of those looking for something to patent. From the description of ANS, it looks very similar to the QM/Q-coder for JBIG/2, JPEG, and JPEG2000, which was patented by IBM a long time ago (since expired.)
- wmu 9y agoSide note. When I was preparing biographies of Abraham Lempel and Jacob Ziv (the inventors of LZ77 and LZ78), I read an interview with Lempel. He was asked why they hadn't patented their algorithms. And he replied like this: we're scientist, our goal is to improve the world, not be rich. His answer surprised me. They clearly knew that the invention is remarkable and would be profitable, but deliberately made it free.
- Cpoll 9y agoCan anyone explain Google's rationale here? As I understand the US patent system, patent trolls can and do make these sorts of patent filings all the time, and the legitimacy doesn't matter, because their victims can't afford to defend themselves in court. Isn't it irrational not to file patents like these? Or is Google planning to use this patent "offensively?"
- jhall1468 9y agoGoogle has never used a patent offensively. Hell even Waymo was more about theft than patents. But HN turns rabid in these situations rather than understanding Google has to do this to prevent trolls from doing it.
- Sylphine 9y ago>Google has to do this to prevent trolls from doing it. So you believe that a company as powerful as Google deserves more consolidated power. No, thanks.I will stick with the possibility of getting sued by a troll than handing that power to Google.
- jhall1468 9y agoNo, but they've never used that power whereas trolls always use it for bad. The fact that you'd rather have a troll own it than Google is literally retarded. That's like advocating you'd prefer North Korea have nukes than the US, because the US already has too much power. Why would you rather be sued in real life over a theoretical fear? Is absurd.
- Sylphine 9y ago>theoretical fear Profit is always the bottom line. Google isn't some humanitarian project. Get your head out of the clouds.
- xorblurb 9y agoHN turns rabid, rightfully so. Even with so-called good motives, which are not even proven. And to be clear, in no way there can be a good motive here: their pledge is limited to Free and Open Source Software, its not even sure this pledge is binding, and EVEN if they really do limit their use of this patent (would have it been misattributed to Google by error), I don't think they would EVER pay the real inventor the value they gain from obtain from having it in their stockpile, even less if they do want to use it after another giant attack them.
- e-beach 9y agoSorry, but I wouldn't trust an article written by the Polish state media. The title of the article, labeling the idea a "Polish coding concept", clearly presupposes that Google's claim was baseless.
- mieses 9y agoIt is fair to bring up Polish state media and the tendency of Poles towards nationalistic bias. If anyone didn't get that then this comment is useful. Just bear in mind that Google PR is on the other side of the argument. It was usually a safe bet to side with Google but given recent trends it may be a good idea to look at the merits of the arguments.
- mirekrusin 9y agoWhy this news, posted 2 hours ago, slided from front page to 40th position in about 2 minutes? It's got 251 points, 52 comments which is way more than anything on the front page?
- krzyk 9y agoSame here, I saw it at the top, after I read the comments and refreshed the main page, it was gone I found it on the 46th spot.
- agsamek 9y agoThis post had 251 points in two hours. It was no 1 post for some time and now it was downgraded to 42ND position in the list. 2 hours after posting with 251points. How is it possible????
- alecco 9y ago#3 168 points 7h IOCCC Flight Simulator #72 280 points 6h Poland's oldest university denies Google's right to patent Polish coding concept (had to scroll to middle of 3rd page) (and it's #1 on Algolia 24hs top) Makes sense, perfectly explainable.