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There's a strong correlation between women entering a field and it having low prestige, and men entering a field and it having higher prestige. Guess which fie

There's a strong correlation between women entering a field and it having low prestige, and men entering a field and it having higher prestige. Guess which field of ours was considered busywork for women to do until men realized it was going to transform society as we know it.

utnick 9y ago
When do you think programming began to have high prestige? I didn't think programming in the 80s or 90s was a particularly prestigous or high status job, salaries back then kind of reflect that too
- cmiles74 9y ago
  It was pretty prestigious in the 90's and seems to remain so today. At parties where I'm required to mix with other adults from varying backgrounds (i.e. a child's birthday party), they are almost universally impressed that I am in software development. As a child, people did seem impressed (in the 80's) that my father was a developer and we were one of the few families in town that had a proper computer (not an Atari 2600 or an Intellivison).
- someguydave 9y ago
  I don't think it is a prestigious job today. When was the last time you remember a movie starring a computer programmer? How often do you hear the phrase "We better consult the computer programmers before we make this important decision"? How many novels center on the daily procedures of computer programming?
innocentoldguy 9y ago
Perhaps, but even if the article is correct, and male programmers in the 1960s did intentionally crowd out women, doesn't that demonstrate what Damore posited when he said women are less assertive and less aggressive, in general? It seems disingenuous for the author of the article to declare Damore "wrong," when studies back up what Damore said, and this article itself suggests those tendencies to be accurate, at least to some degree.
- danharaj 9y ago
  James Damore asserted that women are less aggressive than men because of mostly biological factors which is ridiculous if one has ever at all paid attention to the social signals given to women. Also, why the fuck would we ever stand for our industry to be organized along hierarchies of dominance and aggression? What exactly is the argument here?
  - innocentoldguy 9y ago
    Had he said psychological differences instead, would you then agree with him? There are differences, which is obvious. So I am curious what you think the root cause of those differences is, and why you're willing to throw out the whole premise, based solely on Damore's understanding of the root cause? Isn't that a bit like denying the sunrise, simply because someone says the sun moves in the sky because it revolves around the Earth? Please read the links I offered in another response in this thread for more information.
  - innocentoldguy 9y ago
    To answer your last question: Because if we didn't, our competitors would put us out of business. Try running a competitive business on kindness and feelings and see how long you last.
- cmiles74 9y ago
  There are no studies that backup Damore. He cherry picked bits and pieces he liked to tell a story that isn't supported by the sources he quoted.
  - innocentoldguy 9y ago
    You may want to research your position before making such a bold statement. Please note the links I posted in another response in this thread. Just because something doesn't agree with your worldview does not make it untrue, or, at the very least, unworthy of intelligent consideration. Also, please don't conflate my targeted point with Damore's multi-page, multi-themed memo.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
oh_sigh 9y ago
That's because the women "programmers" were largely doing things like plugging wires into a certain configuration as dictated to them by the (usually male) engineers. What the article terms as programming as essentially operating a switch board - it had nothing to do with programming as we know it today.
- mpweiher 9y ago
  You and your "facts". ;-)

utnick 9y ago

When do you think programming began to have high prestige? I didn't think programming in the 80s or 90s was a particularly prestigous or high status job, salaries back then kind of reflect that too

cmiles74 9y ago
It was pretty prestigious in the 90's and seems to remain so today. At parties where I'm required to mix with other adults from varying backgrounds (i.e. a child's birthday party), they are almost universally impressed that I am in software development. As a child, people did seem impressed (in the 80's) that my father was a developer and we were one of the few families in town that had a proper computer (not an Atari 2600 or an Intellivison).
someguydave 9y ago
I don't think it is a prestigious job today. When was the last time you remember a movie starring a computer programmer? How often do you hear the phrase "We better consult the computer programmers before we make this important decision"? How many novels center on the daily procedures of computer programming?

innocentoldguy 9y ago

Perhaps, but even if the article is correct, and male programmers in the 1960s did intentionally crowd out women, doesn't that demonstrate what Damore posited when he said women are less assertive and less aggressive, in general? It seems disingenuous for the author of the article to declare Damore "wrong," when studies back up what Damore said, and this article itself suggests those tendencies to be accurate, at least to some degree.

danharaj 9y ago
James Damore asserted that women are less aggressive than men because of mostly biological factors which is ridiculous if one has ever at all paid attention to the social signals given to women. Also, why the fuck would we ever stand for our industry to be organized along hierarchies of dominance and aggression? What exactly is the argument here?
- innocentoldguy 9y ago
  Had he said psychological differences instead, would you then agree with him? There are differences, which is obvious. So I am curious what you think the root cause of those differences is, and why you're willing to throw out the whole premise, based solely on Damore's understanding of the root cause? Isn't that a bit like denying the sunrise, simply because someone says the sun moves in the sky because it revolves around the Earth? Please read the links I offered in another response in this thread for more information.
- innocentoldguy 9y ago
  To answer your last question: Because if we didn't, our competitors would put us out of business. Try running a competitive business on kindness and feelings and see how long you last.
cmiles74 9y ago
There are no studies that backup Damore. He cherry picked bits and pieces he liked to tell a story that isn't supported by the sources he quoted.
- innocentoldguy 9y ago
  You may want to research your position before making such a bold statement. Please note the links I posted in another response in this thread. Just because something doesn't agree with your worldview does not make it untrue, or, at the very least, unworthy of intelligent consideration. Also, please don't conflate my targeted point with Damore's multi-page, multi-themed memo.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

oh_sigh 9y ago

That's because the women "programmers" were largely doing things like plugging wires into a certain configuration as dictated to them by the (usually male) engineers. What the article terms as programming as essentially operating a switch board - it had nothing to do with programming as we know it today.

mpweiher 9y ago
You and your "facts". ;-)