4 ms·

Though I don't agree with all of it, the article makes some valid points on the social problems that may erupt from UBI. I suspect that reason UBI has the foll

by mabbo 9y ago

Though I don't agree with all of it, the article makes some valid points on the social problems that may erupt from UBI. I suspect that reason UBI has the following it does today is because it's socialism dressed in a funny mask. "Hey, no socialism here! Private industry still does everything! The money to pay for it all just happens to come from large taxes on the super rich". The left like it because it's socialism, the right like it because the government doesn't do very much at all except distribute the wealth. I tend to argue instead for actual socialism over UBI. Socialized health care, public education, infrastructure, etc. Once you stop presuming the government can't do anything well, you start to see real possibilities. (Bias: Canadian, enjoying my relatively efficient and effective health care system and public education)

will_hughes 9y ago
I still don't see how socialism without a UBI (under whatever guise you give it) works in a world where there's significant fractions of the population that will never have a job.
- k__ 9y ago
  And even those who have a job. I saved enough money so I don't have to work for years, but I'm still don't feel at ease. First I had the fear I wouldn't get a job, then I had the fear I could lose it any time due to things out of my control (crisis 2008). Now I think, everything is okay, but for how long? This industry doesn't like old people, how long can I be a software engineer? till 40? till 50? What should I do then?
  - Xoros 9y ago
    That's kind of (partially) the point for me on the UBI subject. Fear. We are moving to a world where work as we know it will be more and more rare. So why not provide every one a roof, to eat, and health care ? The most part of the population live in fear. Fear if you loose your job you won't be able to live in decent conditions. So you keep on working a sh*tty job you don't like just because you have no choice. You restrain yourself of doing things you like because you come home exhausted (physically or mentally. Or both). Some will say that it have been attempted in USSR. And failed. And it's very true. But now is a time where most of the basic jobs can be done automatically. Where you can build a house in less than a day. Even print it ! May be it's a good time to change paradigm. PS : I'm a 46 yo software engineer. So far so good. Crossing fingers ;)
    - posterboy 9y ago
      >But now is a time where most of the basic jobs can be done automatically. I wouldn't be surprised if that has been said 100 years ago before.
      - k__ 9y ago
        The hope is, we will reinvent new jobs, like we always did. But we have to reeducate people when their job gets rationalised away before they pensioners
        coldtea 9y ago
        >The hope is, we will reinvent new jobs, like we always did. Always being "a couple of times during stages of the industrial revolution" -- back when we had crude automation and no AI. Hardly a long range of samples to make any safe deductions from.
      - coldtea 9y ago
        >I wouldn't be surprised if that has been said 100 years ago before. Well, a turkey predicting death would get shunned by other turkeys every time the farmer just comes and feeds them. And then Thankgiving comes and it turns out that turkey was right. Failure of something to happen in the past is not really a good way to predict whether it happen in the future. The similarities between periods don't tell us anything at all without considering the differences. Back then there was still factory jobs (the second wave of industrialization) and tons of services jobs (which made most of the population into office and service workers). Both of those are things that are now being automated away. So where exactly do you see those jobs being created?
        posterboy 9y ago
        Yes, maybe, but talking about now, we are not quite there, yet, are we?
      - will_hughes 9y ago
        And each time it's been a little closer to the truth. We mechanised the farm removing the need for hundreds/thousands of people to work on farms. Those people went to work in factories and mines. The mines have moved to larger machines with fewer workers, preferring to use large open-cut techniques rather than underground mining wherever possible. Then we automated large numbers of factories, and there were some more transport jobs moving stuff around en-masse. Now we're looking to automate the transport jobs with self-driving vehicles. When we automate transport jobs, where do all those people go to work? Businesses are not automating things because they think it's cool, it's because it's a lower cost alternative to having humans do the work.
cgmg 9y ago
"I tend to argue instead for actual socialism over UBI. Socialized health care, public education, infrastructure, etc." That's not socialism, at all. That's social democracy. As someone who comes from a country that has actually been ravaged by socialism, there's a world of a difference between the two.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >As someone who comes from a country that has actually been ravaged by socialism, there's a world of a difference between the two. Those countries have been ravaged by being run by totalitarian parties that followed a specific Stalinist model Not by anything specific in socialism itself. Social democracy is still a form of socialism, and until around the first world war there were one and the same (including being championed by the same people).

by mabbo 9y ago

will_hughes 9y ago

I still don't see how socialism without a UBI (under whatever guise you give it) works in a world where there's significant fractions of the population that will never have a job.

k__ 9y ago
And even those who have a job. I saved enough money so I don't have to work for years, but I'm still don't feel at ease. First I had the fear I wouldn't get a job, then I had the fear I could lose it any time due to things out of my control (crisis 2008). Now I think, everything is okay, but for how long? This industry doesn't like old people, how long can I be a software engineer? till 40? till 50? What should I do then?
- Xoros 9y ago
  That's kind of (partially) the point for me on the UBI subject. Fear. We are moving to a world where work as we know it will be more and more rare. So why not provide every one a roof, to eat, and health care ? The most part of the population live in fear. Fear if you loose your job you won't be able to live in decent conditions. So you keep on working a sh*tty job you don't like just because you have no choice. You restrain yourself of doing things you like because you come home exhausted (physically or mentally. Or both). Some will say that it have been attempted in USSR. And failed. And it's very true. But now is a time where most of the basic jobs can be done automatically. Where you can build a house in less than a day. Even print it ! May be it's a good time to change paradigm. PS : I'm a 46 yo software engineer. So far so good. Crossing fingers ;)
  - posterboy 9y ago
    >But now is a time where most of the basic jobs can be done automatically. I wouldn't be surprised if that has been said 100 years ago before.
    - k__ 9y ago
      The hope is, we will reinvent new jobs, like we always did. But we have to reeducate people when their job gets rationalised away before they pensioners
      - coldtea 9y ago
        >The hope is, we will reinvent new jobs, like we always did. Always being "a couple of times during stages of the industrial revolution" -- back when we had crude automation and no AI. Hardly a long range of samples to make any safe deductions from.
    - coldtea 9y ago
      >I wouldn't be surprised if that has been said 100 years ago before. Well, a turkey predicting death would get shunned by other turkeys every time the farmer just comes and feeds them. And then Thankgiving comes and it turns out that turkey was right. Failure of something to happen in the past is not really a good way to predict whether it happen in the future. The similarities between periods don't tell us anything at all without considering the differences. Back then there was still factory jobs (the second wave of industrialization) and tons of services jobs (which made most of the population into office and service workers). Both of those are things that are now being automated away. So where exactly do you see those jobs being created?
      - posterboy 9y ago
        Yes, maybe, but talking about now, we are not quite there, yet, are we?
    - will_hughes 9y ago
      And each time it's been a little closer to the truth. We mechanised the farm removing the need for hundreds/thousands of people to work on farms. Those people went to work in factories and mines. The mines have moved to larger machines with fewer workers, preferring to use large open-cut techniques rather than underground mining wherever possible. Then we automated large numbers of factories, and there were some more transport jobs moving stuff around en-masse. Now we're looking to automate the transport jobs with self-driving vehicles. When we automate transport jobs, where do all those people go to work? Businesses are not automating things because they think it's cool, it's because it's a lower cost alternative to having humans do the work.

cgmg 9y ago

"I tend to argue instead for actual socialism over UBI. Socialized health care, public education, infrastructure, etc." That's not socialism, at all. That's social democracy. As someone who comes from a country that has actually been ravaged by socialism, there's a world of a difference between the two.

coldtea 9y ago
>As someone who comes from a country that has actually been ravaged by socialism, there's a world of a difference between the two. Those countries have been ravaged by being run by totalitarian parties that followed a specific Stalinist model Not by anything specific in socialism itself. Social democracy is still a form of socialism, and until around the first world war there were one and the same (including being championed by the same people).