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> JavaScript has also successfully escaped perception of "a language for brains". Research background is actually harmful for a modern programming language. Th

by sds2 9y ago

> JavaScript has also successfully escaped perception of "a language for brains". Research background is actually harmful for a modern programming language. Those who consider javascript a good language usually lack the experience to compare languages effectively. Javascript is mostly appealing to front-end developers because they usually don't know anything else. Also, there are a LOT of front-enders so, you can explain the "popularity" with that. JS has many warts but js-zealots will just ignore it due to the hype. > simplistic Go takes the world over by storm; Proof on that? Because so far, the only ones using it are the ones who just don't know how to use other languages. The y prefer garbage code over learning generics... > the web is mostly written in PHP, whose inventors are as far from PL research as one can get. Proof on that "mostly" again? Also, most of those sites are unstable and known to be really hard to maintain. PHP was just an easy entry for unskilled labour which is a bad thing since they'll create worse products which will cost more in the long run. But beginners don't care about the long run - they just want the money from ads. > I am perfectly aware of all the differences between Lisp and JavaScript and of the other languages that have influenced JavaScript (Self, Perl, Lua), but think of this: what made Lisp so great in the past? Your points are too subjective: > automatic memory management (compared to Fortran/C) Did lisps took part in researching modern GCs? I don't think so. I thought it only had a simplisitc ARC only... > very dynamic language and environment, And it's a very useless feature - or prove it otherwise. Strongly and statically typed languages can `eval` too. > multi-paradigm, flexible programming language: functional, OO and imperative programming when needed; 1. First lisps wasn't OO and modern lisps are either NOT OO or support it poorly; 2. imperative programming is not that comfortable in lisp; 3. lisp is not a good FP language: just compare it to ML. > research roots and great minds behind the language; Or more like failed experiments and like-minded enterpreneurs.

justinhj 9y ago
> Those who consider javascript a good language usually lack the experience to compare languages effectively Javascript IS a powerful language with features that were not in other mainstream language for decades and some still don't have: first class functions, dynamic typing, lambda functions, closures etc. You only have to look at the diverse uses of Javascript to appreciate how far that power goes. As for the warts of JS any experienced Javascript programmer has learned to work around those and it takes a small effort to learn how to do so. > Proof on that "mostly" again? You really need proof that the majority of the web is written in PHP? As for an entry point for unskilled labour, my first PHP code was written after I'd been a C++ programmer for 20 years. I found it similar to Javascript; some warts to be aware of but otherwise a powerful language it's possible to be very productive in in a short amount of time. I refer you to the look at the many Facebook tech blog posts on the topic. Whilst PHP has some limitations around it's runtime model, if you can stick within it the modern PHP is a very good tool for backend development. > modern lisps are either NOT OO or support it poorly Have you read up on CLOS? It goes way beyond the features of, say, C++ object model. By limiting yourself to a subset you can have the basic OOP features; inheritance, polymorphism and encapsulation. It provides more and arguably non-oop features such as multiple dispatch, methods that can run before, after and around your own methods (aspect oriented in modern parlance). There is an excellent book by Sonya Keene on CLOS and OOP in Common Lisp.
- b278 9y ago
  Doesn't it strike you as odd that Javascript was universally ridiculed some 15 years ago and all of a sudden it is "a powerful language"? Follow the money ...
- sds2 9y ago
  > Javascript IS a powerful language with features that were not in other mainstream language for decades and some still don't have: first class functions, dynamic typing, lambda functions, closures etc. You only have to look at the diverse uses of Javascript to appreciate how far that power goes. This is ridiculous and it just shows how you don't have any experience with ML languages. > As for the warts of JS any experienced Javascript programmer has learned to work around those and it takes a small effort to learn how to do so. Again, ridiculous excuses. > You really need proof that the majority of the web is written in PHP? Yes. > As for an entry point for unskilled labour, my first PHP code was written after I'd been a C++ programmer for 20 years. I found it similar to Javascript; some warts to be aware of but otherwise a powerful language it's possible to be very productive in in a short amount of time. I refer you to the look at the many Facebook tech blog posts on the topic. It's not powerful, you just don't have experience with effective languages. > Have you read up on CLOS? It goes way beyond the features of, say, C++ object model. By limiting yourself to a subset you can have the basic OOP features; inheritance, polymorphism and encapsulation. It provides more and arguably non-oop features such as multiple dispatch, methods that can run before, after and around your own methods (aspect oriented in modern parlance). That was added after and still looks bad overall.
  - justinhj 9y ago
    Your only criticism of anything is "you don't have any experience in that" which is quite hilarious. Thanks for the trolling.
    - sds2 9y ago
      Your sentences are the same : "it's so powerful" - it's ridiculous that there are ppl who call themselves programmers and still like js.
lispm 9y ago
> I thought it only had a simplisitc ARC only... You are trolling.
- sds2 9y ago
  Don't like my negative experience with lisp? I could guess it from your username.
  - lispm 9y ago
    Since you talk about ARC in the context of Lisp GC I doubt that you have any experience with Lisp.
    - sds2 9y ago
      No I don't have any experience in its memory management and I don't need it.

by sds2 9y ago

justinhj 9y ago

> Those who consider javascript a good language usually lack the experience to compare languages effectively Javascript IS a powerful language with features that were not in other mainstream language for decades and some still don't have: first class functions, dynamic typing, lambda functions, closures etc. You only have to look at the diverse uses of Javascript to appreciate how far that power goes. As for the warts of JS any experienced Javascript programmer has learned to work around those and it takes a small effort to learn how to do so. > Proof on that "mostly" again? You really need proof that the majority of the web is written in PHP? As for an entry point for unskilled labour, my first PHP code was written after I'd been a C++ programmer for 20 years. I found it similar to Javascript; some warts to be aware of but otherwise a powerful language it's possible to be very productive in in a short amount of time. I refer you to the look at the many Facebook tech blog posts on the topic. Whilst PHP has some limitations around it's runtime model, if you can stick within it the modern PHP is a very good tool for backend development. > modern lisps are either NOT OO or support it poorly Have you read up on CLOS? It goes way beyond the features of, say, C++ object model. By limiting yourself to a subset you can have the basic OOP features; inheritance, polymorphism and encapsulation. It provides more and arguably non-oop features such as multiple dispatch, methods that can run before, after and around your own methods (aspect oriented in modern parlance). There is an excellent book by Sonya Keene on CLOS and OOP in Common Lisp.

b278 9y ago
Doesn't it strike you as odd that Javascript was universally ridiculed some 15 years ago and all of a sudden it is "a powerful language"? Follow the money ...
sds2 9y ago
> Javascript IS a powerful language with features that were not in other mainstream language for decades and some still don't have: first class functions, dynamic typing, lambda functions, closures etc. You only have to look at the diverse uses of Javascript to appreciate how far that power goes. This is ridiculous and it just shows how you don't have any experience with ML languages. > As for the warts of JS any experienced Javascript programmer has learned to work around those and it takes a small effort to learn how to do so. Again, ridiculous excuses. > You really need proof that the majority of the web is written in PHP? Yes. > As for an entry point for unskilled labour, my first PHP code was written after I'd been a C++ programmer for 20 years. I found it similar to Javascript; some warts to be aware of but otherwise a powerful language it's possible to be very productive in in a short amount of time. I refer you to the look at the many Facebook tech blog posts on the topic. It's not powerful, you just don't have experience with effective languages. > Have you read up on CLOS? It goes way beyond the features of, say, C++ object model. By limiting yourself to a subset you can have the basic OOP features; inheritance, polymorphism and encapsulation. It provides more and arguably non-oop features such as multiple dispatch, methods that can run before, after and around your own methods (aspect oriented in modern parlance). That was added after and still looks bad overall.
- justinhj 9y ago
  Your only criticism of anything is "you don't have any experience in that" which is quite hilarious. Thanks for the trolling.
  - sds2 9y ago
    Your sentences are the same : "it's so powerful" - it's ridiculous that there are ppl who call themselves programmers and still like js.

lispm 9y ago

> I thought it only had a simplisitc ARC only... You are trolling.

sds2 9y ago
Don't like my negative experience with lisp? I could guess it from your username.
- lispm 9y ago
  Since you talk about ARC in the context of Lisp GC I doubt that you have any experience with Lisp.
  - sds2 9y ago
    No I don't have any experience in its memory management and I don't need it.