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Segwit is not necessary for Lightning Network. It's a false dichotomy: on-chain scaling does not preclude off-chain scaling (which is what LN is). Bitcoin with

Segwit is not necessary for Lightning Network. It's a false dichotomy: on-chain scaling does not preclude off-chain scaling (which is what LN is). Bitcoin with Segwit will prioritize off-chain scaling (hence the 1MB blocksize limit and the current moves to prevent increasing it to 2mb), while Bitcoin Cash wants to enable on-chain scaling as the mainstay; but by no means are they mutually exclusive. The Segwit activation raises new questions and concerns: the agreement to proceed with Segwit was a compromise known as Segwit2x (Segwit + 2mb blocks). Now it appears much of the Core team has no intention of honoring the 2x part (see core software 0.15 changelog: it will block any nodes signaling for segwit2x). Yet the 2x part is locked in - meaning we are currently headed towards a hard fork.

jstanley 9y ago
> Now it appears much of the Core team has no intention of honoring the 2x part It's not a case of "not honouring" the 2x part; no members of the core team were part of the NYA. You can't come up with an agreement and then accuse people who didn't sign it of failing to honour your agreement!
- theprotocol 9y ago
  I tried being as neutral as possible but you're right that my language implies that they signed it. I should've worded that differently. However, I still wouldn't let them off the hook entirely: intentionally blocking nodes signaling Segwit2x in 0.15 is definitely a political move. There are clear sides that are forming; and I don't mean to make any value judgment here on which side is "in the right." I'm simply trying to explain the volatility of the current situation and the various points of contention between the groups that are forming.
  - kobeya 9y ago
    > intentionally blocking nodes signaling Segwit2x in 0.15 is definitely a political move This is incorrect. There was a straightforward technical reason given in the pull request -- not enacting this change would likely partition the bitcoin network when the split happens. A network partition could be a drastic event that if exploited would result in much lost money and bankruptcy.
    - theprotocol 9y ago
      Can you elaborate? What kind of partition are you referring to? Thanks.
      - rothbardrand 9y ago
        Dating back to the days of satoshi, the consensus would reject blocks that did not fit its rules. That way some node can't just make up its own rules. Rather than join a P2P network of nodes with wrong rules Core added code to not connect to nodes that give you blocks that violate consensus. It's not controversial but the anti-core forces have nothing of substance so they make up drama.
        theprotocol 9y ago
        I see. Thanks. Need to read more about this.
      - kobeya 9y ago
        A partition of the connectivity graph. Imagine we have two Bitcoin Core nodes connected by an intermediate Segwit2X [sic] node: 1X(a) ----- 2X ----- 1X(b) When the 2x node starts relaying post-fork blocks, it is seen as misbehaving by the 1x peers and dropped by both of its neighbors. The unattended consequence is that 1x(a) is no longer connected to 1x(b). If the mining network is only connected to one of these partitioned networks, then it is possible that the other will not hear of new blocks. The bitcoin nodes will have a different view of the network simply because they are not connected to each other. Worse there might be a few miners on the less hashrate side that still move the network forward a few blocks. If this situation persists, e.g. because network operators are asleep at the wheel, it could be exploited by selectively connecting and broadcasting double-spends to the two networks. To prevent this from happening the Bitcoin Core team added code to 0.15 and higher that will per-emptively disconnect peers that advertise themselves as Segwit2x. Therefore a 0.15 node will only connect to peers that will relay good blocks from its perspective, and it is much less likely that such a network partition would occur. As long as there exists some nodes that don't auto-disconnect (e.g. old bitcoin nodes) then the Bitcoin Core 0.15+ and the Segwit2x networks will remain connected until the fork occurs.
rothbardrand 9y ago
Segwit enables 4MB blocks so all this talk about "1mb blocks" is kinda silly. If you don't understand the technology and block weight don't try to make claims. LN can work without segwit but it works much better with segwit and segwit enables a lot of other things like side chains and shorr signatures etc. No there was no agreement called Segwit2X. The BCH people agreed segwit2x but the developers weren't even invited. To call something a compromise or an agreement when one side was never even invited is disingenuous at best. But this kind of misrepresentation has been going on for years and is the primary basis of attack against core-- because there are no technical arguments against core.
- theprotocol 9y ago
  >If you don't understand the technology and block weight don't try to make claims. Then just correct me graciously. These are all things I've read from public figures in the Bitcoin community so I'm not "making claims" and this stuff is certainly not readily available information.

jstanley 9y ago

> Now it appears much of the Core team has no intention of honoring the 2x part It's not a case of "not honouring" the 2x part; no members of the core team were part of the NYA. You can't come up with an agreement and then accuse people who didn't sign it of failing to honour your agreement!

theprotocol 9y ago
I tried being as neutral as possible but you're right that my language implies that they signed it. I should've worded that differently. However, I still wouldn't let them off the hook entirely: intentionally blocking nodes signaling Segwit2x in 0.15 is definitely a political move. There are clear sides that are forming; and I don't mean to make any value judgment here on which side is "in the right." I'm simply trying to explain the volatility of the current situation and the various points of contention between the groups that are forming.
- kobeya 9y ago
  > intentionally blocking nodes signaling Segwit2x in 0.15 is definitely a political move This is incorrect. There was a straightforward technical reason given in the pull request -- not enacting this change would likely partition the bitcoin network when the split happens. A network partition could be a drastic event that if exploited would result in much lost money and bankruptcy.
  - theprotocol 9y ago
    Can you elaborate? What kind of partition are you referring to? Thanks.
    - rothbardrand 9y ago
      Dating back to the days of satoshi, the consensus would reject blocks that did not fit its rules. That way some node can't just make up its own rules. Rather than join a P2P network of nodes with wrong rules Core added code to not connect to nodes that give you blocks that violate consensus. It's not controversial but the anti-core forces have nothing of substance so they make up drama.
      - theprotocol 9y ago
        I see. Thanks. Need to read more about this.
    - kobeya 9y ago
      A partition of the connectivity graph. Imagine we have two Bitcoin Core nodes connected by an intermediate Segwit2X [sic] node: 1X(a) ----- 2X ----- 1X(b) When the 2x node starts relaying post-fork blocks, it is seen as misbehaving by the 1x peers and dropped by both of its neighbors. The unattended consequence is that 1x(a) is no longer connected to 1x(b). If the mining network is only connected to one of these partitioned networks, then it is possible that the other will not hear of new blocks. The bitcoin nodes will have a different view of the network simply because they are not connected to each other. Worse there might be a few miners on the less hashrate side that still move the network forward a few blocks. If this situation persists, e.g. because network operators are asleep at the wheel, it could be exploited by selectively connecting and broadcasting double-spends to the two networks. To prevent this from happening the Bitcoin Core team added code to 0.15 and higher that will per-emptively disconnect peers that advertise themselves as Segwit2x. Therefore a 0.15 node will only connect to peers that will relay good blocks from its perspective, and it is much less likely that such a network partition would occur. As long as there exists some nodes that don't auto-disconnect (e.g. old bitcoin nodes) then the Bitcoin Core 0.15+ and the Segwit2x networks will remain connected until the fork occurs.

rothbardrand 9y ago

Segwit enables 4MB blocks so all this talk about "1mb blocks" is kinda silly. If you don't understand the technology and block weight don't try to make claims. LN can work without segwit but it works much better with segwit and segwit enables a lot of other things like side chains and shorr signatures etc. No there was no agreement called Segwit2X. The BCH people agreed segwit2x but the developers weren't even invited. To call something a compromise or an agreement when one side was never even invited is disingenuous at best. But this kind of misrepresentation has been going on for years and is the primary basis of attack against core-- because there are no technical arguments against core.

theprotocol 9y ago
>If you don't understand the technology and block weight don't try to make claims. Then just correct me graciously. These are all things I've read from public figures in the Bitcoin community so I'm not "making claims" and this stuff is certainly not readily available information.