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> I see very little in terms of features or problems they solve that distinguishes Java, JavaScript, Go, Scala and C# from each other when it comes to writing W

by fnl 9y ago

> I see very little in terms of features or problems they solve that distinguishes Java, JavaScript, Go, Scala and C# from each other when it comes to writing Web backends. So in a way, we agree, as that was my whole point - Go & it's predecessors (ASP, PHP, JS, ...) are mostly only good for Web backends: E.g., literally all Go developers I know personally are either fresh out of college or ex PHP programmers, ASPers and JS hackers, and all work exclusively on web development stuff. (But my sample size is maybe a dozen companies, so that's possibly biased, I agree.)

fauigerzigerk 9y ago
What I disagree with first and foremost is your claim that Go is not an alternative for JVM/.NET languages and hence shouldn't be compared to them. All of these languages are direct competitors in a number of areas today (Web backends, infrastructure services, database systems) and based on language/runtime capabilities (as opposed to cultural and library availability) I see almost no area where there is no potential overlap in the future. Also, what a language is currently used for and what it is good for are two completely different things. There was a time when Java was mostly used for Applets and desktop user interfaces. It wasn't good at either.
- fnl 9y ago
  For the sake of argument, let's assume Go were equal to Java and C# (nb, I think that is not true, but let's look at the issue from that perspective). Can Go replace C#? That's MS land and comes with the .Net platform. I think nobody will think Go is even remotely gathering its following from C# and the amount of tooling you get there is probably the largest set you can get. What about Java? That has 20 years of entrenched Enterprise usage. So to make a dent on that, it not only has to have equal languages facilities, it also needs an equivalent ecosystem (maybe?) and, crucially, has to be better: Java replaced C++ as it's a much better fit at what it's used for due to GC and "no" resource management. But I certainly don't see anything that Go does that makes it much better over Java as Java was in it's day over C++. So no, I don't see Go replacing .Net or the JVM anytime soon.
  - fauigerzigerk 9y ago
    That is a long list of straw man arguments. You keep refuting claims I never made while ignoring my point. I never claimed that Go is seeing any significant uptake in Java's or C#'s historical strongholds. I'm not talking about current usage at all. I also didn't say that Go is going to replace .NET or the JVM. I didn't even say that Go is better at anything. None of what you keep going on about has even the slightest thing to do with the point I was making. My point is very simple: Go, Java, Scala, C# and their most widely used implementations have similar enough technical capabilities to be useful for many of the same tasks. Therefore it is useful to compare them.
    - fnl 9y ago
      As I said right off the bat, if that's your argument, where are things like: generics, error handling facilities, macros, reflections, annotations, etc. in Go that are provided by Java, Scala, C++, C#, and Clojure?
      - fauigerzigerk 9y ago
        What you need for a useful comparison is two things that are substitutable for each other in a particular context but not identical. Go vs Java meets these criteria. That's all I'm saying.
        fnl 9y ago
        Which is why I said, we (mostly) agree: Go is great for web backend development, as I've never disputed in any reply, quite the contrary. My point was and is, that's all there is to "compare" - even if that area might be the biggest domain in IT right now.
        fauigerzigerk 9y ago
        Here's what you said: >Go is an alternative for C (for services), PHP, and server-side JS. I don't understand why people keep comparing it to languages like C++, C#, D, Java, Rust, or Scala. Your claim was that there is no overlapping area of application and hence comparing the languages makes no sense. That is where we disagree if that is still your opinion. Besides, I see abolutely no reason why Go couldn't be used for writing something like Cassandra, Kafka, Spark, Hadoop or a core banking system. None of these are specifically Web backends. Equally, I see very little reason why Docker or Kubernetes could not be written in Java or C#.
- fnl 9y ago
  I continue to fail to see your argument: First you claim that any language can be shoehorned into any usage, and then (last paragraph) you yourself show why that isn't quite true. Plus, as said, Go's language "facilities" are a long shot from Java/Scala/C#'s, while having GC can be prohibitive in other areas (C++, Rust, embedded systems, real-time transaction processing), and some areas (e.g. space exploration) even need the ability to change the runtime code on the fly.
  - fauigerzigerk 9y ago
    >First you claim that any language can be shoehorned into any usage I did not claim that at all. What I dispute is that the set of tasks for which both Go and Java/.NET are suitable is so small that it makes no sense to compare them. People often have a choice of using Go, Java, Scala, C#, etc, for the same task and that is why a comparison makes perfect sense.
    - fnl 9y ago
      As I've explained here extensively, I don't think that Go is replacing any of the more fancy languages like Scala, Clojure, D, ... And as for C++, that's in a different domain. Finally, Java & C# are entrenched and Go has no decisively better advantage that would make it worth giving up those code bases (like Java was over C++' resource management). I do agree that Go has made the life of legions of PHP and Node.JS developers easier. And it is nicer to do web development in Go rather than C and Python. However, claiming that Go "eats everybody's lunch" is rather outlandish.
      - fauigerzigerk 9y ago
        >However, claiming that Go "eats everybody's lunch" is rather outlandish. I didn't say it was. I said comparing Go to Java or C# is useful because these languages are suitable for many of the same tasks. What you are making of this pretty uncontroversial statement is mind boggling.
        fnl 9y ago

by fnl 9y ago

fauigerzigerk 9y ago

What I disagree with first and foremost is your claim that Go is not an alternative for JVM/.NET languages and hence shouldn't be compared to them. All of these languages are direct competitors in a number of areas today (Web backends, infrastructure services, database systems) and based on language/runtime capabilities (as opposed to cultural and library availability) I see almost no area where there is no potential overlap in the future. Also, what a language is currently used for and what it is good for are two completely different things. There was a time when Java was mostly used for Applets and desktop user interfaces. It wasn't good at either.

fnl 9y ago
For the sake of argument, let's assume Go were equal to Java and C# (nb, I think that is not true, but let's look at the issue from that perspective). Can Go replace C#? That's MS land and comes with the .Net platform. I think nobody will think Go is even remotely gathering its following from C# and the amount of tooling you get there is probably the largest set you can get. What about Java? That has 20 years of entrenched Enterprise usage. So to make a dent on that, it not only has to have equal languages facilities, it also needs an equivalent ecosystem (maybe?) and, crucially, has to be better: Java replaced C++ as it's a much better fit at what it's used for due to GC and "no" resource management. But I certainly don't see anything that Go does that makes it much better over Java as Java was in it's day over C++. So no, I don't see Go replacing .Net or the JVM anytime soon.
- fauigerzigerk 9y ago
  That is a long list of straw man arguments. You keep refuting claims I never made while ignoring my point. I never claimed that Go is seeing any significant uptake in Java's or C#'s historical strongholds. I'm not talking about current usage at all. I also didn't say that Go is going to replace .NET or the JVM. I didn't even say that Go is better at anything. None of what you keep going on about has even the slightest thing to do with the point I was making. My point is very simple: Go, Java, Scala, C# and their most widely used implementations have similar enough technical capabilities to be useful for many of the same tasks. Therefore it is useful to compare them.
  - fnl 9y ago
    As I said right off the bat, if that's your argument, where are things like: generics, error handling facilities, macros, reflections, annotations, etc. in Go that are provided by Java, Scala, C++, C#, and Clojure?
    - fauigerzigerk 9y ago
      What you need for a useful comparison is two things that are substitutable for each other in a particular context but not identical. Go vs Java meets these criteria. That's all I'm saying.
      - fnl 9y ago
        Which is why I said, we (mostly) agree: Go is great for web backend development, as I've never disputed in any reply, quite the contrary. My point was and is, that's all there is to "compare" - even if that area might be the biggest domain in IT right now.
        fauigerzigerk 9y ago
        Here's what you said: >Go is an alternative for C (for services), PHP, and server-side JS. I don't understand why people keep comparing it to languages like C++, C#, D, Java, Rust, or Scala. Your claim was that there is no overlapping area of application and hence comparing the languages makes no sense. That is where we disagree if that is still your opinion. Besides, I see abolutely no reason why Go couldn't be used for writing something like Cassandra, Kafka, Spark, Hadoop or a core banking system. None of these are specifically Web backends. Equally, I see very little reason why Docker or Kubernetes could not be written in Java or C#.
fnl 9y ago
I continue to fail to see your argument: First you claim that any language can be shoehorned into any usage, and then (last paragraph) you yourself show why that isn't quite true. Plus, as said, Go's language "facilities" are a long shot from Java/Scala/C#'s, while having GC can be prohibitive in other areas (C++, Rust, embedded systems, real-time transaction processing), and some areas (e.g. space exploration) even need the ability to change the runtime code on the fly.
- fauigerzigerk 9y ago
  >First you claim that any language can be shoehorned into any usage I did not claim that at all. What I dispute is that the set of tasks for which both Go and Java/.NET are suitable is so small that it makes no sense to compare them. People often have a choice of using Go, Java, Scala, C#, etc, for the same task and that is why a comparison makes perfect sense.
  - fnl 9y ago
    As I've explained here extensively, I don't think that Go is replacing any of the more fancy languages like Scala, Clojure, D, ... And as for C++, that's in a different domain. Finally, Java & C# are entrenched and Go has no decisively better advantage that would make it worth giving up those code bases (like Java was over C++' resource management). I do agree that Go has made the life of legions of PHP and Node.JS developers easier. And it is nicer to do web development in Go rather than C and Python. However, claiming that Go "eats everybody's lunch" is rather outlandish.
    - fauigerzigerk 9y ago
      >However, claiming that Go "eats everybody's lunch" is rather outlandish. I didn't say it was. I said comparing Go to Java or C# is useful because these languages are suitable for many of the same tasks. What you are making of this pretty uncontroversial statement is mind boggling.
      - fnl 9y ago