7 ms·

As someone who has been screwed by "rapacity", all I can say is be very very careful being "nice". As Pink Floyd said in a song "You have to be trusted by the

As someone who has been screwed by "rapacity", all I can say is be very very careful being "nice". As Pink Floyd said in a song "You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to, so that when they turn their backs on you. You'll get the chance to put the knife in." As someone who lost out on a billion dollar business, be nice, but watch out for knives in the back. Often those knives are in the form of law firms.

jey 9y ago
That sucks. Can you share more about this purported exception to the rule?
- pfarnsworth 9y ago
  Mesh networks.
  - BatFastard 9y ago
    That was a minor detail ;-)
- BatFastard 9y ago
  My experience was not with user rapacity but with partner rapacity. I have always found good will towards users pays back 10 fold. Partners on the other hand are much trickier. For me it was around what I thought was a carefully crafted contract. Long story by my partner seized all of the IP, than said "sue me". It was specifically prohibited in the contract, but I was not in a position at the time to spend a LOT of money fighting a team of lawyers. Unfortunately what my team had made look easy was beyond the capabilities of the team he hired to replace us. So the product floundered.
  - Sangermaine 9y ago
    In the future consider a fee-shifting provision in your contracts (meaning loser pays legal costs). If your case was as clear-cut as you say, it would have enabled you to fight it. It might also have dissuaded your partner from trying to do this to you if they knew they were in the wrong and would have had to pay the costs.
    - warcher 9y ago
      Binding arbitration is a real, real smart move if you don't plan to fuck anybody.
      - TimPC 9y ago
        Binding arbitration is also the safest way to screw people since arbiters tend to be far more easy to corrupt and there has been a long history of harmful rulings in the space in the US. The problem is the side with power gets to pick the list of arbiters and the arbiters know this and act accordingly. The times broke a story on some of this covering some of the worst rulings and issues a while back.
        andy_ppp 9y ago
        Could you not agree specific arbitration up front or a legal firm who should appoint an arbitrator on your behalf?
        BatFastard 9y ago
        If you were wise enough.
      - Sangermaine 9y ago
        Arbitration is a complex question, but a separate one. I was responding to the parent's concerns about costs. A fee-shifting provision can also be used in arbitration if the parties desire.
        warcher 9y ago
        It's a pretty decent way out of the whole "I'm rich, and I will destroy you with lawyer bills irrespective of the right or wrong of the situation" loophole. Any time you spin the wheel of fortune, bad things can and often do happen, but for these sorts of flagrant violations, where you're an honest dealer and they're not, it's probably the least worst scenario. I know whereof I speak here, but obviously can't share details.
  - GunlogAlm 9y ago
    Off topic, but are you the BatFastard in Generals.io, by chance?
    - BatFastard 9y ago
      I am indeed. Whom are you?
      - GunlogAlm 9y ago
        Ha, small world indeed. I mostly play as an Anon, after losing my last account (can't even recall the username). I think you've bested me a fair few times. :)
        BatFastard 9y ago
        It's an insanely fun, intense few minutes. Get a name! Not enough socialization in the game.
    - BatFastard 9y ago
      It's a small world eh
partisan 9y ago
As someone going through something very similar, I can say now that when you sign a contract, it is effectively putting into writing how you can be screwed and what happens if your counterparty decides to screw you over. You have to assume they will, ensure that your lawyer has considered all of the possibilities that matter and never assume your new, smiling, friendly, business partner has your best interests at heart. Oh and lawyers are expensive.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  As the saying goes: if you have a business partner, get rid of them. I suspect the only people for whom partnerships could in anyway make sense are lawyers.
  - maehwasu 9y ago
    Alternatively, up your people-reading and manipulation skills. I've made a ton more money having partners than I would have without. I suspect that many developers haven't REALLY had to deal with Machiavellian people before, and in that respect, I was fortunate to come to coding from a more cutthroat business environment in which I had already been screwed multiple times. What doesn't kill you etc.
    - rdtsc 9y ago
      > up your people-reading and manipulation skills. ... > What doesn't kill you etc. [tongue in cheek] Reading between the lines there, does it mean you were the one doing the stabbing in the back ? ;-) Serious question (assuming the above wasn't the case), how do you deal with the Machiavellian people without turning into one of them?
      - delaaxe 9y ago
        The 48 laws of power could be a place to start
      - _0ffh 9y ago
cookiecaper 9y ago
Yes. People really need to be aware of phony "niceness". Attempts to minimize one's concern about people acting out of their self-interest are promoted the most by people who don't want others to suspect that they're acting out of self-interest. They want you to believe you're paranoid, delusional, manic for considering the possibility that they may not have your best interests at heart. While it's true that skepticism can be taken to an unhealthy extreme, most people are too gullible, not too skeptical. Ironically, promoting the "everyone is nice, don't worry, nothing can hurt you if you give everything away" perspective is itself evidence that they don't have your best interests at heart. Non-hostile people don't begrudge those who are attempting to practice reasonable due diligence and "deal hygiene". Good deals are good for everyone, and that means that you shouldn't need to worry about how "nice" something is or isn't. This essay links out to a sister essay about how few business people are "mean". They certainly don't seem mean; conspicuous mean-spiritedness is not an attractive attribute, and you'll have a hard time accumulating power if you exhibit it. On the other hand, you'll also have a hard time accumulating power by being a bleeding heart. As an investor, pg has an incentive to encourage founders not to worry about how much they're giving away. As a semi-prominent/powerful player in Silicon Valley, he also has a PR image that must be maintained to prevent an undesirable level of scrutiny from either the press or the government. We should not forget that pg's self-interest is to convince others a) to give things away without thinking about it; and b) to maintain a public persona as a businessman-philanthropist with net social benefit, as opposed to a realistic cynic who used his advantage in wits to excel.
- tim333 9y ago
  I think that might be a bit over negative about PG. I don't think he's worried about scruitiny and the amounts YC get people to give away are modest.
raarts 9y ago
Also remember where the word 'binding' comes from in the expression 'binding contract' or 'binding people to the company'. Machiavellian people mean this literally. A contract can really turns into chains which feel like a prison. Source: currently bound by a contract.
- BearGoesChirp 9y ago
  I've gotten a lot of hate for the intense distrust I give any contracts and how open I'm with it. People act like I'm being socially wrong by not trusting what a person says and pointing out how negative the contract is for me, especially when I refuse to sign a contract that most people sign without reading. There is a strong social pressure to just sign and ignore that you are giving away your freedom. This seems even stronger since the person you are signing it in front of is just a sales person who isn't a party to the contract and has no actual say, so they take it personally as if I should just trust their word over the contract written by their lawyer.
  - BatFastard 9y ago
    The two scariest words in the world "Trust me"!
    - dkffkld 9y ago
      Or rather, "Believe me!" </trump>

jey 9y ago

That sucks. Can you share more about this purported exception to the rule?

pfarnsworth 9y ago
Mesh networks.
- BatFastard 9y ago
  That was a minor detail ;-)
BatFastard 9y ago
My experience was not with user rapacity but with partner rapacity. I have always found good will towards users pays back 10 fold. Partners on the other hand are much trickier. For me it was around what I thought was a carefully crafted contract. Long story by my partner seized all of the IP, than said "sue me". It was specifically prohibited in the contract, but I was not in a position at the time to spend a LOT of money fighting a team of lawyers. Unfortunately what my team had made look easy was beyond the capabilities of the team he hired to replace us. So the product floundered.
- Sangermaine 9y ago
  In the future consider a fee-shifting provision in your contracts (meaning loser pays legal costs). If your case was as clear-cut as you say, it would have enabled you to fight it. It might also have dissuaded your partner from trying to do this to you if they knew they were in the wrong and would have had to pay the costs.
  - warcher 9y ago
    Binding arbitration is a real, real smart move if you don't plan to fuck anybody.
    - TimPC 9y ago
      Binding arbitration is also the safest way to screw people since arbiters tend to be far more easy to corrupt and there has been a long history of harmful rulings in the space in the US. The problem is the side with power gets to pick the list of arbiters and the arbiters know this and act accordingly. The times broke a story on some of this covering some of the worst rulings and issues a while back.
      - andy_ppp 9y ago
        Could you not agree specific arbitration up front or a legal firm who should appoint an arbitrator on your behalf?
        BatFastard 9y ago
        If you were wise enough.
    - Sangermaine 9y ago
      Arbitration is a complex question, but a separate one. I was responding to the parent's concerns about costs. A fee-shifting provision can also be used in arbitration if the parties desire.
      - warcher 9y ago
        It's a pretty decent way out of the whole "I'm rich, and I will destroy you with lawyer bills irrespective of the right or wrong of the situation" loophole. Any time you spin the wheel of fortune, bad things can and often do happen, but for these sorts of flagrant violations, where you're an honest dealer and they're not, it's probably the least worst scenario. I know whereof I speak here, but obviously can't share details.
- GunlogAlm 9y ago
  Off topic, but are you the BatFastard in Generals.io, by chance?
  - BatFastard 9y ago
    I am indeed. Whom are you?
    - GunlogAlm 9y ago
      Ha, small world indeed. I mostly play as an Anon, after losing my last account (can't even recall the username). I think you've bested me a fair few times. :)
      - BatFastard 9y ago
        It's an insanely fun, intense few minutes. Get a name! Not enough socialization in the game.
  - BatFastard 9y ago
    It's a small world eh

partisan 9y ago

As someone going through something very similar, I can say now that when you sign a contract, it is effectively putting into writing how you can be screwed and what happens if your counterparty decides to screw you over. You have to assume they will, ensure that your lawyer has considered all of the possibilities that matter and never assume your new, smiling, friendly, business partner has your best interests at heart. Oh and lawyers are expensive.

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
As the saying goes: if you have a business partner, get rid of them. I suspect the only people for whom partnerships could in anyway make sense are lawyers.
- maehwasu 9y ago
  Alternatively, up your people-reading and manipulation skills. I've made a ton more money having partners than I would have without. I suspect that many developers haven't REALLY had to deal with Machiavellian people before, and in that respect, I was fortunate to come to coding from a more cutthroat business environment in which I had already been screwed multiple times. What doesn't kill you etc.
  - rdtsc 9y ago
    > up your people-reading and manipulation skills. ... > What doesn't kill you etc. [tongue in cheek] Reading between the lines there, does it mean you were the one doing the stabbing in the back ? ;-) Serious question (assuming the above wasn't the case), how do you deal with the Machiavellian people without turning into one of them?
    - delaaxe 9y ago
      The 48 laws of power could be a place to start
    - _0ffh 9y ago

cookiecaper 9y ago

Yes. People really need to be aware of phony "niceness". Attempts to minimize one's concern about people acting out of their self-interest are promoted the most by people who don't want others to suspect that they're acting out of self-interest. They want you to believe you're paranoid, delusional, manic for considering the possibility that they may not have your best interests at heart. While it's true that skepticism can be taken to an unhealthy extreme, most people are too gullible, not too skeptical. Ironically, promoting the "everyone is nice, don't worry, nothing can hurt you if you give everything away" perspective is itself evidence that they don't have your best interests at heart. Non-hostile people don't begrudge those who are attempting to practice reasonable due diligence and "deal hygiene". Good deals are good for everyone, and that means that you shouldn't need to worry about how "nice" something is or isn't. This essay links out to a sister essay about how few business people are "mean". They certainly don't seem mean; conspicuous mean-spiritedness is not an attractive attribute, and you'll have a hard time accumulating power if you exhibit it. On the other hand, you'll also have a hard time accumulating power by being a bleeding heart. As an investor, pg has an incentive to encourage founders not to worry about how much they're giving away. As a semi-prominent/powerful player in Silicon Valley, he also has a PR image that must be maintained to prevent an undesirable level of scrutiny from either the press or the government. We should not forget that pg's self-interest is to convince others a) to give things away without thinking about it; and b) to maintain a public persona as a businessman-philanthropist with net social benefit, as opposed to a realistic cynic who used his advantage in wits to excel.

tim333 9y ago
I think that might be a bit over negative about PG. I don't think he's worried about scruitiny and the amounts YC get people to give away are modest.

raarts 9y ago

Also remember where the word 'binding' comes from in the expression 'binding contract' or 'binding people to the company'. Machiavellian people mean this literally. A contract can really turns into chains which feel like a prison. Source: currently bound by a contract.

BearGoesChirp 9y ago
I've gotten a lot of hate for the intense distrust I give any contracts and how open I'm with it. People act like I'm being socially wrong by not trusting what a person says and pointing out how negative the contract is for me, especially when I refuse to sign a contract that most people sign without reading. There is a strong social pressure to just sign and ignore that you are giving away your freedom. This seems even stronger since the person you are signing it in front of is just a sales person who isn't a party to the contract and has no actual say, so they take it personally as if I should just trust their word over the contract written by their lawyer.
- BatFastard 9y ago
  The two scariest words in the world "Trust me"!
  - dkffkld 9y ago
    Or rather, "Believe me!" </trump>